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Subject: Should I buy this? rss

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Andrii Chabykin
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From what I saw in the gameplay video, the game seems to be very luck dependent. Dice rolling, more dice rolling, even more dice rolling. Obvious choices.

Can you explain how is this game interesting?
 
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Sam Jackson
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If you don't like the look of it, don't buy it, I'm sure that there are many more on your wishlist that do interest you. No point spending money on a game that you don't like the look of.
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Andrii Chabykin
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SamThe2Can wrote:
If you don't like the look of it, don't buy it, I'm sure that there are many more on your wishlist that do interest you. No point spending money on a game that you don't like the look of.


I like the look of the game.yuk
 
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Michael Johnson
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The game is surely a theme-driven dice chucker. But I think there's also a strong element of crisis management that you're downplaying--which both creates a small handful of meaningful choices and leads to tension in the game (how can your group make the best of a bad situation). I wasn't sold on the game at first, but after I rewatched the playthrough, I saw ways in which the game would be fun TO PLAY even if it's not the most exciting to watch. Just my opinion!
 
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L VonMeister
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Chabster wrote:
SamThe2Can wrote:
If you don't like the look of it, don't buy it, I'm sure that there are many more on your wishlist that do interest you. No point spending money on a game that you don't like the look of.


I like the look of the game.yuk

Then what's the point of the question? Nobody here has access to any more content, articles or videos than you have. If it appeals to you then dive in and buy it.
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Andrii Chabykin
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VonMeister wrote:

Then what's the point of the question? Nobody here has access to any more content, articles or videos than you have. If it appeals to you then dive in and buy it.


Having seen 20+ games of similar genre, people can say something valuable. The game looks like an expensive set of miniatures with no depth. That what I can tell from the video.


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Max Maloney
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Chabster wrote:
Having seen 20+ games of similar genre, people can say something valuable. The game looks like an expensive set of miniatures with no depth. That what I can tell from the video.

People have been playing strategic wargames based on dice rolls for longer than you have been alive. There is still skill involved. If you are not comfortable with how to strategize with dice based on probabilities, you may not enjoy this. But it is not random. A smart player will beat someone who assumes there is no ability to influence the outcome.
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Andrii Chabykin
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Dormammu wrote:

People have been playing strategic wargames based on dice rolls for longer than you have been alive. There is still skill involved. If you are not comfortable with how to strategize with dice based on probabilities, you may not enjoy this. But it is not random. A smart player will beat someone who assumes there is no ability to influence the outcome.

Unfortunately, everything you wrote doesn't help me make a decision.
I'm comfortable with dice, just can't see how could I possibly enjoy this game. Is it worth 100$? Given the amount of tiles, I assume all scenarios are pretty much the same, with different miniatures on the board.

Why have you backed this game after all (besides decent miniatures)? I bet it won't be better than Mansions of Madness.
 
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Max Maloney
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Chabster wrote:
I bet it won't be better than Mansions of Madness.

I would make a substantial bet it will be far better than MoM. That game was so poorly tested; half the scenarios were just broken.

The Others is less of a thematic game than you might think. The team has goals they need to accomplish. The Sins player has to kill them before they do it. The rules provide a framework for interfering and interacting with each other.

It's less rules dense than thematic games usually are, but that's because it's about the interaction and not about rules for all kinds of story-based elements.

Again, plenty of room for tactics based on my understanding of the game.
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Judgement Dave
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Chabster wrote:

I'm comfortable with dice, just can't see how could I possibly enjoy this game.

I think you've got your answer then: No - you should not buy this.
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J M
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They piled so many bonuses into the Kickstarter that this might be one to wait and see if you're thinking about retail.
 
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Luke
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The game is interesting because of the variable set-ups between all of the Sin player options and all of the character options for faith.

I don't even want to do the math on how many different combos there are; especially when we have already been told that the city tiles will come with suggestions, but feel free to set up as you wish.

Rolling as a mechanic for combat is something I generally don't like; I prefer deterministic combat or card based combat (where you reveal a chosen strength etc).

But one vs many games tend to just be designed this way. I mean, Imperial Assault constantly gets praised as one of the best 1 vs many games to date and that uses a 6 sided dice.

I think the reasons to be excited are just:

- Enjoy the theme
- across the stretch of 100's of games the more tactical side will win more consistently.
- Huge variety in set-up
- Tactical decisions with a bit of random factor for the "I can't believe that happened!?" moments.

If that isn't really enough for you then skip it.

Is the game perfect? Heck no. But I am really excited about this one... Then again I like Eldritch Horror, Zombicide, Dead of Winter etc etc.

All games that can be lost or won due to good/bad rolls.
 
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Judgement Dave
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Lepruk wrote:
The game is interesting because of the variable set-ups between all of the Sin player options and all of the character options for faith.

I don't even want to do the math on how many different combos there are;

Well, it was a while back, and I can't recall if all possible factors (the 'minor' villains and Apocalypse box?) had been unveiled, but I had a stab at some of the numbers:

The number of combinations of n objects from a collection of N objects (without replacement) is N!/(n!*(N-n)!) ! is the factorial (i.e. n! is the product of all integers >0 up to and including n, e.g. 3! = 3x2x1 = 6 So using [someone else's] counts of characters/entities available:
the number of officially FAITH teams (1 leader, 2 sniper, 2 fixer, 2 bruiser) available is 25,200
i.e. 25200 = 1 x 28 x 15 x 15 = (1 leader out of 4 possible) x (2 snipers out of 8 possible) x (2 fixers out of 6 possible) x (2 bruisers out of 6 possible)
For each game, you pick 1 Sin and 1 set of acolytes, which is 63 combinations i.e. 63 = 7 * 9 = (1 Sin out of 7 possibles) x (1 acolyte type from 9 possible)
To find out how many combinations of Team and Sin/Acolyte you multiply the individual numbers of combinations together - so we multiply 25,200 (number of teams) x 63 (number of Sin/Acolyte combos) to get a total number of combinations of 63 x 25200 = 1,587,600

BTW - the number of 7-member FAITH teams possible if we don't follow the official guide of 1 leader, 2 snipers etc is the number of combinations of 7 from 24 available FAITH members which is a fairly large 346,104 (though not all would be balanced, hence the official team makeup).

NOTES:
- Some FAITH team mixes may feel similar to each other, and what is more important may not be what the whole team makeup is but which 3 or 4 heroes are currently on the game board.
- Likewise whilst there may be many map possibilities, I expect that some would be impractical (due to being too unbalanced/large) or feel too similar to other maps, so I'd tend to factor how big the game feels not by pure mathematical combinations, but by the combinations of factors that feel different enough.
- All this doesn't address additional factors such as whether or not the mayor is in play, if any Hellclub or Apocalypse riders are used. As I put before the horsemen were revealed I'd guess that the current number of distinct possibilities is given by something like:
(#distinct feel hero teams) x (#Sins) x (#scenarios) x (#acolyte types) x (#distinct feel board layouts) x (1 + #independent parties, e.g. mayor) x (#hell club + 1)
- There's also the possibility of distinct player created variations, but they're only limited by communication and the will/imagination of the collective player base...
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Luke
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JudgementDave wrote:
Lepruk wrote:
The game is interesting because of the variable set-ups between all of the Sin player options and all of the character options for faith.

I don't even want to do the math on how many different combos there are;

Well, it was a while back, and I can't recall if all possible factors (the 'minor' villains and Apocalypse box?) had been unveiled, but I had a stab at some of the numbers:

The number of combinations of n objects from a collection of N objects (without replacement) is N!/(n!*(N-n)!) ! is the factorial (i.e. n! is the product of all integers >0 up to and including n, e.g. 3! = 3x2x1 = 6 So using [someone else's] counts of characters/entities available:
the number of officially FAITH teams (1 leader, 2 sniper, 2 fixer, 2 bruiser) available is 25,200
i.e. 25200 = 1 x 28 x 15 x 15 = (1 leader out of 4 possible) x (2 snipers out of 8 possible) x (2 fixers out of 6 possible) x (2 bruisers out of 6 possible)
For each game, you pick 1 Sin and 1 set of acolytes, which is 63 combinations i.e. 63 = 7 * 9 = (1 Sin out of 7 possibles) x (1 acolyte type from 9 possible)
To find out how many combinations of Team and Sin/Acolyte you multiply the individual numbers of combinations together - so we multiply 25,200 (number of teams) x 63 (number of Sin/Acolyte combos) to get a total number of combinations of 63 x 25200 = 1,587,600

BTW - the number of 7-member FAITH teams possible if we don't follow the official guide of 1 leader, 2 snipers etc is the number of combinations of 7 from 24 available FAITH members which is a fairly large 346,104 (though not all would be balanced, hence the official team makeup).

NOTES:
- Some FAITH team mixes may feel similar to each other, and what is more important may not be what the whole team makeup is but which 3 or 4 heroes are currently on the game board.
- Likewise whilst there may be many map possibilities, I expect that some would be impractical (due to being too unbalanced/large) or feel too similar to other maps, so I'd tend to factor how big the game feels not by pure mathematical combinations, but by the combinations of factors that feel different enough.
- All this doesn't address additional factors such as whether or not the mayor is in play, if any Hellclub or Apocalypse riders are used. As I put before the horsemen were revealed I'd guess that the current number of distinct possibilities is given by something like:
(#distinct feel hero teams) x (#Sins) x (#scenarios) x (#acolyte types) x (#distinct feel board layouts) x (1 + #independent parties, e.g. mayor) x (#hell club + 1)
- There's also the possibility of distinct player created variations, but they're only limited by communication and the will/imagination of the collective player base...


Wow I appreciate the effort on that! .

All I will say is that I had considered that some set-ups will feel the same/similar but I still feel the actual set-up has more than enough variety to make the game worth it. And the estimates you put forward definitely help that argument imo.
 
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Tyler DeLisle
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I think you guys are putting too much effort into feeding a troll here. He doesn't seem to actually want to hear about the game, just dog on it. The Others seems so much more interesting To me than Mansions of Madness. Much quicker setup and play time and yet much more tactical for both sides playing. The simple fact that he Sins player is reacting in between Faith player turns is huge.
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Paul Glickman
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What? It's perfectly understandable that he would think it's mostly luck. I've done a fair bit of research and I'm not even sure yet (I'm also on the fence for very similar reason).

We just haven't seen much of the game! We've seen the rulebook and some content, but we only have 1 watchable game (afaik) played by the designer and the team selling it... No reviewers have played to tell us if this actually plays as a light dice chucker or a deeper game, and so how the heck are we supposed to know?

It's a very good question, not a troll at all. He just wasn't expecting backlash and wasn't very diplomatic about his question.
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Judgement Dave
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Paul G wrote:
We just haven't seen much of the game! We've seen the rulebook and some content, but we only have 1 watchable game (afaik) played by the designer and the team selling it... No reviewers have played to tell us if this actually plays as a light dice chucker or a deeper game, and so how the heck are we supposed to know?

It depends how much work you want to put into things. We've actually been shown hell of a lot if you're willing to dig deep. (Not meaning that as a dig, it really takes an obsessive to get the most out of things)

I've managed to construct what I believe is a pretty fair PnP version of the game including:
- 2 scenarios that I know are 100% correct (red & green)
- 1 scenario I believe is mostly correct (blue)
- 27 types of Upgrade card (about 15-20 are correct, an additional 6+ at least mainly correct)
- 30 map correct tiles
- A set of 9 terror cards
- A set of 9 apocalypse cards
- A set of Dark Past cards (iirc 5 correct)
- A set of 9 Sin Cards for Sloth and Pride (c. 13-14 correct)
- All Corrupted Acolytes (either 100% correct or close from text descriptions)
- All core Heroes 100% correct
- All other FAITH Heroes (stats made up sensibly [I hope] and special abilities from text descriptions in most cases)
- All Sins (either 100% or usually made up from text descriptions)

I didn't make the Apocalypse box (nowhere near enough info on how they'll work), the Sons of Ragnarock (I've enough to play with!), the 'minor' villains or the cards for green/blue scenarios.

I've also not yet made Sin decks for each Sin - we've only seen 1 or 2 partials for most Sins, but we have an idea what aspect of play they each 'pick on' and the decks we have seen seem to suggest that there's some overlap in generic Sin card abilities.

Now I know that's not the same as playing the final game, and the PnP has been made from videos/rulebooks/KS posts that are subject to change, but it's plenty to try it out and get a feel for how random it is.

So much of the information is out there, if you're obsessive and don't mind spending hours stepping through videos frame by frame, collating it all, etc etc

And yes - I should indeed get a life.

Paul G wrote:
It's a very good question, not a troll at all. He just wasn't expecting backlash and wasn't very diplomatic about his question.

Agreed. I'm happy that it's not too random, but can see where some others may have worries.

My simple answer of 'No' to buying it was both tongue-in-cheek and deadly serious. If he has doubts and thinks it may be too random, then he's better not buying it at this point.
Go and buy a game he's sure he'll like, instead.
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Jonathan Moriarity
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I dont think it's your kind of game.
You probably shouldn't buy it.
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Paul Glickman
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Kickstarter exclusives change the game. If he thinks he has a good chance of liking it, and he can afford it, he should buy it because hell never get close to as good a deal.

Have you played it with your PNP?

Note I may not buy in because the exclusives are extremely over the top and I don't want to support it, but if I did I'd be in by now. If I find evidence it's so good I'll regret not buying in, I'll do so though!
 
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Andrii Chabykin
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Paul G wrote:
Kickstarter exclusives change the game. If he thinks he has a good chance of liking it, and he can afford it, he should buy it because hell never get close to as good a deal.


I can't see how exclusives can change the game that goes to retail.
I believe that KS games are rarely a good deal. Cause you always pay at least full MSRP + shipping whereas you can buy the game later with 25-35% off and free or very cheap shipping. Never backed anything on KS though (this game might be the first one). I find it intolerable to throw money in advance and then wait for 6-8-10 months for a cat in a bag.
 
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Paul Glickman
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The exclusives are just content, nothing unique but most of us really like content. If you're not bothered about missing a HUGE amount of game, I'd definitely wait. Risk is high on this one, I'd wait for reviews probably.
 
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Max Maloney
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Chabster wrote:
I can't see how exclusives can change the game that goes to retail.
I believe that KS games are rarely a good deal. Cause you always pay at least full MSRP + shipping whereas you can buy the game later with 25-35% off and free or very cheap shipping. Never backed anything on KS though (this game might be the first one). I find it intolerable to throw money in advance and then wait for 6-8-10 months for a cat in a bag.

CMON tends to throw a wrench in the usual analysis for a few reasons:

First, you are getting a lot of expansions free as stretch goals. $100 is full MSRP for the base game, but through Kickstarter you are getting six expansions free (the five Sins boxes not in the base game plus Beta Team). According to the main page, that is $305 MSRP worth of stuff.

Second, CMON's big minis games don't get discounted as much as other games online. They are usually only 20% off at major OLGS. So you're looking at $244 to get everything in this base pledge at a later date, even if you shop online.

Third, the availability of expansions is always up in the air. Assuming this hits store shelves in April, the first expansion Sins may not be out until June. And it could be October or later for all five to be at retail. Bonus agent boxes could be even later.

Fourth, there are the exclusives. Things like the Omega box and the exclusive enemies (eg, "the Mayor") are likely to be quite expensive on the aftermarket.

In short, if you ever decide you want this game, you will probably regret not backing it. Given the community opinion of Eric Lang, this game will at least be wanted by many people at release. No one can yet say how well it will do in the long term.
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Andrii Chabykin
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I reviewed the rule book and eventually threw my money after

Items:
Title Cost Count Total
Pledge level $100 $100.00 1 $100.00
Men of Faith $20.00 1 $20.00
Wounds Pack $10.00 1 $10.00
Apocalypse $40.00 1 $40.00

Sub-total:$170.00
Shipping cost:$26.15

Total:$195.15

I am 100% sure I could buy all this for 120-140$ with free shipping from either CSI/MM/epicstratagems

 
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Geoff ...
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^ haha ok. Think you're forgetting all those "free" sin boxes. And Omega. And Beta.
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Jon Darlington
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Chabster wrote:
I am 100% sure I could buy all this for 120-140$ with free shipping from either CSI/MM/epicstratagems

Then you have made a colossal blunder in your assessment.

Quite a bit of the content you're receiving as part of your pledge is Kickstarter exclusive; it wouldn't be in that retail copy from CSI etc., and you could only buy it at eBay prices: the entire Omega team, the dice bags, extra tiles, the Mayor and Nicholas.

Plus, there's significant content included in the pledge that will hit stores later, but retail purchasers will have to buy separately from that copy they got from CSI. Namely:

Extra heroes
corrupted police acolytes
corrupted fireman acolytes
extra hero dice, upgrade cards, and city tiles
Greed controller, abominations, sin board, and sin cards
Lust controller, abominations, sin board, and sin cards
Envy controller, abominations, sin board, and sin cards
Gluttony controller, abominations, sin board, and sin cards
Wrath controller, abominations, sin board, and sin cards

In short, you have stumbled across a gold mine without recognizing it. A lot like Humphrey Bogart and Tim Holt in this scene, where The Others: 7 Sins is the thing that Walter Huston is dancing on:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3w4B7QxL_n4
 
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