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Subject: Use of Survival rss

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Jack J.

Michigan
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I am pretty clear on how to use Survival when it comes to one Survivor, so this question is about multiple Survivors.

First I have a few rule lawyers in my group that like to look for loopholes.

Often they are not but it can go months before everyone else comes around to the realization that it's not exactly how it works.

So this is the question:

Assuming the survival action is used in the correct moment can more then one survivor act?

Say for instance, White Lion Picks target, then Survivor A Surges he rolls dice, then Survivor B Dashes, Survivor C then Surges, rolls his dice, which then allows Survivor B to Surge.

You then resolve B completely. Resolve Survivor C. Resolve Survivor A.

Complete White Lion's attack assuming it's alive.

Their strategy is based on utterly and completely interrupting the monster's actions at every possible turn. IMO opinion they are grasping for an overall meta to the game but I don't think one is possible for it. Way too many variables and many completely outside your control. Its possible to have an overall strategy for your settlement but far too often you have to make compromises to get you by one LY or another.
 
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François Mahieu
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That's the way we play it. There's no limit, as far as I know, to the number of survivors allowed to use survivals, provided that the rules (and timing) regarding their use is respected. Actually the main reason why we do this is to try to cancel the monster's reactions by hitting them with a critical.
 
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Stevenson Junior
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The problem is when survivor interrupts the Lion and Lion gets hit, he also gets possible reactions targeting the interrupting survivor.

So in theory:
Survivor A is attacked. It's time to save her!
Survivor B spends Survival to interrupt the Lion. He hits, but fails to wound. Lion reacts to his attack and smashes survivor B dead.
Survivor C spends Survival to interrupt the Lion. She hits, but fails to wound. Lion reacts to her attack and smashes survivor C dead.
Survivor D spends Survival to interrupt the Lion. He hits, but fails to wound. Lion reacts to his attack and smashes survivor D dead.
Lion finishes his attack and kills Survivor A.

Four Survivors were killed in just one round.
 
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François Mahieu
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StevensonJunior wrote:
The problem is when survivor interrupts the Lion and Lion gets hit, he also gets possible reactions targeting the interrupting survivor.

So in theory:
Survivor A is attacked. It's time to save her!
Survivor B spends Survival to interrupt the Lion. He hits, but fails to wound. Lion reacts to his attack and smashes survivor B dead.
Survivor C spends Survival to interrupt the Lion. She hits, but fails to wound. Lion reacts to her attack and smashes survivor C dead.
Survivor D spends Survival to interrupt the Lion. He hits, but fails to wound. Lion reacts to his attack and smashes survivor D dead.
Lion finishes his attack and kills Survivor A.

Four Survivors were killed in just one round.


As I said above, a critical hit might cancel all these reactions, no?
 
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Stevenson Junior
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poifpoif wrote:
StevensonJunior wrote:
The problem is when survivor interrupts the Lion and Lion gets hit, he also gets possible reactions targeting the interrupting survivor.
...
Four Survivors were killed in just one round.


As I said above, a critical hit might cancel all these reactions, no?


From what I've read: Not all, only reactions vs. A, but you must always finish interrupting Survival action (ie. B helping A, but not C helping B, as B attack -> hits -> wounds -> reactions must be solved before C starts his/her action), ie. the chances depend on survivals stats and gear.
 
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Eric Baker
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A critical hit only cancels the reaction on the hit location you critted. Unless the critical knocks the lion down, in which case it can't take reactions.
 
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Jack J.

Michigan
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StevensonJunior wrote:
poifpoif wrote:
StevensonJunior wrote:
The problem is when survivor interrupts the Lion and Lion gets hit, he also gets possible reactions targeting the interrupting survivor.
...
Four Survivors were killed in just one round.


As I said above, a critical hit might cancel all these reactions, no?


From what I've read: Not all, only reactions vs. A, but you must always finish interrupting Survival action (ie. B helping A, but not C helping B, as B attack -> hits -> wounds -> reactions must be solved before C starts his/her action), ie. the chances depend on survivals stats and gear.


Right. Though they "interrupt" you complete one as if it happened alone. Like a moment in time.

Another key part is that if anyone of these makes the lion run off you still complete the attack as if it didn't. Which leads to some interesting visualization of 4 people smashing a lion and it running off like crazy.

Thanks. I wasn't totally sure, but it seemed possible. But too good to be true since it gives players a huge advantage. It's become known as alpha striking.
 
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Josh Gilbank
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I thought that if you surged and as a result the target was out of range of the attack the attack failed to wound.
 
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Jefferson Bauersfeld
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Bio9 wrote:
I am pretty clear on how to use Survival when it comes to one Survivor, so this question is about multiple Survivors.

First I have a few rule lawyers in my group that like to look for loopholes.

Often they are not but it can go months before everyone else comes around to the realization that it's not exactly how it works.

So this is the question:

Assuming the survival action is used in the correct moment can more then one survivor act?

Say for instance, White Lion Picks target, then Survivor A Surges he rolls dice, then Survivor B Dashes, Survivor C then Surges, rolls his dice, which then allows Survivor B to Surge.

You then resolve B completely. Resolve Survivor C. Resolve Survivor A.

Complete White Lion's attack assuming it's alive.

Their strategy is based on utterly and completely interrupting the monster's actions at every possible turn. IMO opinion they are grasping for an overall meta to the game but I don't think one is possible for it. Way too many variables and many completely outside your control. Its possible to have an overall strategy for your settlement but far too often you have to make compromises to get you by one LY or another.


From an example written on pages 76-77: "Now that the survival action is complete, the opportunity remains open for more survival actions...[None want to, so] the monster resumes its action, and it finally moves and attacks." So multiple survivors can use survival during the same opportunity.

However, page 76 explicitly states: "Survival actions cannot be performed until all current survival actions are resolved. If a survivor's surge causes a disastrous reaction from a monster, survivors cannot dash out of its way."

In sum, whenever an opportunity for survival actions arise as defined by the short list on page 76, all survivors have a chance for consecutive, not concurrent, survival actions.
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Jefferson Bauersfeld
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poifpoif wrote:
StevensonJunior wrote:
The problem is when survivor interrupts the Lion and Lion gets hit, he also gets possible reactions targeting the interrupting survivor.

So in theory:
Survivor A is attacked. It's time to save her!
Survivor B spends Survival to interrupt the Lion. He hits, but fails to wound. Lion reacts to his attack and smashes survivor B dead.
Survivor C spends Survival to interrupt the Lion. She hits, but fails to wound. Lion reacts to her attack and smashes survivor C dead.
Survivor D spends Survival to interrupt the Lion. He hits, but fails to wound. Lion reacts to his attack and smashes survivor D dead.
Lion finishes his attack and kills Survivor A.

Four Survivors were killed in just one round.


As I said above, a critical hit might cancel all these reactions, no?


The definition of "Critical Wound Effect" in part reads, "On a critical wound, cancel all reactions on that hit location card." On a side note, only those hit locations that have a critical wound symbol have this opportunity to have their reactions interrupted. The Lion just happens to have a symbol on all of his locations.
 
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François Mahieu
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Jbaue003 wrote:
poifpoif wrote:
StevensonJunior wrote:
The problem is when survivor interrupts the Lion and Lion gets hit, he also gets possible reactions targeting the interrupting survivor.

So in theory:
Survivor A is attacked. It's time to save her!
Survivor B spends Survival to interrupt the Lion. He hits, but fails to wound. Lion reacts to his attack and smashes survivor B dead.
Survivor C spends Survival to interrupt the Lion. She hits, but fails to wound. Lion reacts to her attack and smashes survivor C dead.
Survivor D spends Survival to interrupt the Lion. He hits, but fails to wound. Lion reacts to his attack and smashes survivor D dead.
Lion finishes his attack and kills Survivor A.

Four Survivors were killed in just one round.


As I said above, a critical hit might cancel all these reactions, no?


The definition of "Critical Wound Effect" in part reads, "On a critical wound, cancel all reactions on that hit location card." On a side note, only those hit locations that have a critical wound symbol have this opportunity to have their reactions interrupted. The Lion just happens to have a symbol on all of his locations.


It is even harder than I thought.
 
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Murray Quarmby
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Bio9 wrote:

Assuming the survival action is used in the correct moment can more then one survivor act?


The answer is yes - but only one at a time and only as a response to the original player turn (and associated monster Hit Location reaction) action. As I read it, you cannot use survival against a monster response that is triggered as part of a surge or dash etc.
Page 76 / Survival Actions is clear in first para that survival cannot be spent until all current survival actions (Surge, Dash, etc.) are completed - so you cannot 'react' during someone else's 'reaction'.

Bio9 wrote:

Their strategy is based on utterly and completely interrupting the monster's actions at every possible turn.


This strategy will often backfire as others have stated. Coupled with the above rule, there is no possible survivor reaction (not even the non-attacking survivors) if you are resolving a survival point usage.
Also be aware of the 'one survivor acts at a time' rule - whilst 3 players may have elected to use Survival to respond at a flow-point in the original attack, they must execute these reactions sequentially (and logically after the expenditure of survival) - so if the monster moves out of range as a response to the first of these survivor reactions or drags/knocks someone down, the others fail in attack and still lose the survival point.

So, based on the ideas (interpretation?) that you can only surge in response to an original attack (i.e. not as part of someone else's surge) and all survivor reactions are treated as interrupt actions, it's actually not as hard as it may seem and can be quite detrimental if over-played:
- At any allowed point (flows, between turns, scored a crit), survivors declare Surge or Dash. All are declared at once (no wait and see) - although this is only implicit in (Page 76 / Survival Actions / para 1).
- Survivors execute responses (usually Surges and Dashes) one at a time (p.73, Survivors Turn / para 1 - we treat a 'react' as a type of 'act') - with no possible further use of 'survival' until all declared Surges and Reactions are completed. So Surges are sequential, not nested or simultaneous.
- The monster responds to any 'hits' as per a normal attack with all the normal outcomes (moving out of range, dragging, knock-down, killing survivors etc. If there are any monster reactions, these cannot trigger a use of 'survival' in any way (Page 76 / Survival Actions / para 1). By implication, these reactions may foil other surges or dashes.
- Finally, the original attack is completed and is never foiled by an interim monster reaction (from the FAQ - When a (surging) survivor does this, the original attack is paused, the surge attack is completely resolved, then the original attack picks up exactly where it left off, regardless of the new positions of the survivors or monsters.)

So a good scenario: If the 4th player is taking their turn and scores a critical hit that knocks the monster down, all other players can spend survival to surge and pile in on the monster with no risk!
 
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Christophe Fontaine
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I mostly agree with you Morray except for a couple things :

For me, you declare use of survivals one at a time.

Example :

Player A just wounded a HL with a wound reaction. Before the reaction is resolved, player B declares a dash. His survivor dashes. Then player C declares a surge to attack. His survivor attacks, deals 3 hits and critically wound the monster on the first.

At this point, like you said, no survivor can use survival since player C's surge is not finished. The critical hit effect is resolved.

The other two hits are resolved (let's say there are no reactions). So now player C's surge is finished.

Either players B, C and D decide to use another survival action, or player A's attack is resumed and it's time to resolve the wound reaction of the monster.


Now imagine that with player C's surge and attack, he draws a trap. As per the trap rule on page 75, you have to end all survivors' attacks and discard all unresolved hit locations.

At this point what I understand is : all other successful hits of player C are discarded. All other successful hits of player A are discarded too.
Now depending on what "unresolved" means, I'd say you also discard the original HL with the wound reaction.

Anyway now you resolve the trap card. You shuffle all discarded HL back into their deck. There's no wound reaction.
No action is currently running, it's still player A's turn, his act is not finished. He or another player can use any eligible survival action.


In the good scenario you described where a monster is knocked down, each survivor can perform any eligible survival action, one at a time though.

Example : the first one surges and attacks. 2 hits, so 2 HL drawn, one successful wound (remember the monster does not react).
The second one does the same with 2 successful wounds.
The third one, emboldened by these successes, decides to do the same. 3 hits !! but a trap is drawn. The monster stands up and take its revenge.
 
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Murray Quarmby
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ON declaring Survival use one at a time or all at the same time - I think it is at the same time for two reasons:
1. The rule on not being able to use Survival refers to 'until all Survival Actions ...' - referring to multiple Survival Actions in play at the same time (as opposed to saying 'until the current Survival Action...') if you see what I mean.
2. There is no rule saying declare one at a time - only that only one player can be 'active' at a time.

But I agree this is a little loose in the reading - in truth Christophe's interpretation may be more sensible for game-play!
 
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François Mahieu
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Well, this is getting more and more confused... Can a survivor surge on a Reaction triggered by a hit location card drawn by another survivor's surging? Basically can you surge a surge?
 
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Jefferson Bauersfeld
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mquarmby wrote:
ON declaring Survival use one at a time or all at the same time - I think it is at the same time for two reasons:
1. The rule on not being able to use Survival refers to 'until all Survival Actions ...' - referring to multiple Survival Actions in play at the same time (as opposed to saying 'until the current Survival Action...') if you see what I mean.
2. There is no rule saying declare one at a time - only that only one player can be 'active' at a time.

But I agree this is a little loose in the reading - in truth Christophe's interpretation may be more sensible for game-play!


Page 76 explicitly states: "Survival actions cannot be performed until all current survival actions are resolved. If a survivor's surge causes a disastrous reaction from a monster, survivors cannot dash out of its way." The second sentence is true because reactions are still part of an activation, which in this case is still being used by a surge. And survival actions must be used immediately, so a party cannot simply say they are all surging and then have a chain of surges going off. Therefore it is logically impossible to have more than once survival action going at a time.

The example on page 76-77 gives more insight into how this works: "Now that the survival action is complete, the opportunity remains open for more survival actions...[None want to, so] the monster resumes its action, and it finally moves and attacks." Your position is making a similar mistake that I have made before of reading a piece of text hyper-literally to the point of ignoring common usage.
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