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Cosmic Encounter» Forums » Variants

Subject: Another attempt to fix Macron rss

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Carsten
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I want Macron in my games since it is one of the original 15 Eon aliens, but with the latter addition of ship removal effects it has become a weak alien that is a pass most of the time you get the choice to play it.

Some attempts have been made to fix the weakness e.g. letting it send two ships into an encounter instead of one or removing this constraint entirely and give every ship a value of two instead of four. They make Macron competitive for sure, but they also change it into a completely different alien instead of reviving it.

Instead I would like to propose this house rule which addresses its weakness to ship removal directly, giving it the "resilience" it deserves. (Who needs Bulwark anyway?)

Add to Macron text wrote:
Whenever another player chooses a ship from any of your colonies to be removed from it, use this power to leave it there.

Does this leave any ambiguity in interacting with any game effect, can it be improved?
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Fernando
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Hi, which "latter addition of ship removal effects"?
 
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Carsten
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Seichi31 wrote:
Hi, which "latter addition of ship removal effects"?

Bully, Hate, Shadow, Super Vacuum, Ship Zap and Omni-Zap.

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Just a Bill
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... also Butler, Grumpus, Wild Grumpus, Poison, Wild Poison, and (kinda) Voyager.
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Mil Myman
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CosmicBerlin wrote:

Add to Macron text wrote:
Whenever another player chooses a ship from any of your colonies to be removed from it, use this power to leave it there.

Does this leave any ambiguity in interacting with any game effect, can it be improved?

Seems like it might be a little too strong. A power that is completely immune to all those ship-removal effects (Bully, Hate, Shadow, ...)

The proposal I had made a long time ago is to give each Macron ship two "hit points" - the ship has to be targeted twice by ship removal effects in order to be removed. Use an extra, unused color of ships to mark which ships have been hit once, or flip them upside down to indicate one hit (or whatever else works).
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Carsten
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Phil Fleischmann wrote:
The proposal I had made a long time ago is to give each Macron ship two "hit points" - the ship has to be targeted twice by ship removal effects in order to be removed. Use an extra, unused color of ships to mark which ships have been hit once, or flip them upside down to indicate one hit (or whatever else works).

Technically not bad, but how do you phrase this in a few precise sentences that leave no ambiguities and fit on the card?

Maybe I just stick to my older fix which is: "Whenever you gain a colony as the result of winning an encounter, you may move up to three ships from any of your colonies to it."
 
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Just a Bill
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I always like to make minimalistic changes when possible. The more I think about Macron, the more I like this two-word tweak:
You have the power of Mass. As the offense or an ally, use this power when sending ships into the encounter. You may send only one or two ships.

As a main player or ally, use this power after encounter cards are revealed. Each of your ships counts as 4 toward your side's total instead of 1.

When collecting compensation or rewards, each of your ships is worth two ships.


Beefs up the power, protects it against the nasties that kill single-ship colonies, and has the bonus "parity" effect of letting Macron normally earn a maximum of 4 rewards or compensation like everyone else. Most important, this is an alien that I would be excited to draw as one of my two choices, yet it would not be the automatic pick.
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Carsten
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Bill Martinson wrote:
I always like to make minimalistic changes when possible. The more I think about Macron, the more I like this two-word tweak:

Yes, I like this version.

I think we can now get rid of: When collecting compensation or rewards, each of your ships is worth two ships., because the hand robbing ability of Macron when playing a Negotiate on its first encounter as the defense is nasty.

Finally, if we remove the second use clause, we get a really nice and simple green alien that passes the Human test.
EDIT: As Zach pointed out, this does not work out.

 
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Big Head Zach
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CosmicBerlin wrote:
I think we can now get rid of: When collecting compensation or rewards, each of your ships is worth two ships., because the hand robbing ability of Macron when playing a Negotiate on its first encounter as the defense is nasty.


Taking all the cards in someone's hand isn't consistently "nasty". For some it is a salvation! There are many times where I wouldn't want all of someone's cards.

CosmicBerlin wrote:
Finally, if we remove the second use clause, we get a really nice and simple green alien that passes the Human test.


However, it leaves things fuzzy as to exactly when the ships count as 4 and when they don't, and if that part isn't zappable, then there might be confusion as to whether a Zap cancels that aspect at all. I then might try to self-Zap during Launch to send in 4 ships rather than be restricted to 2.
 
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Mil Myman
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CosmicBerlin wrote:
Phil Fleischmann wrote:
The proposal I had made a long time ago is to give each Macron ship two "hit points" - the ship has to be targeted twice by ship removal effects in order to be removed. Use an extra, unused color of ships to mark which ships have been hit once, or flip them upside down to indicate one hit (or whatever else works).

Technically not bad, but how do you phrase this in a few precise sentences that leave no ambiguities and fit on the card?

I don't remember how I phrased it the last time, but it's in the forums somewhere. Something like this:

Game Setup: Take all the ships of an unused color and stack one each under your ships. Each of these two-ship stacks is considered one ship.

[basic power text as usual]

Whenever one or more of your two-ship stacks is specifically targeted for loss (such as by the Bully, Shadow, or Hate) remove the bottom ship. When retrieving your ships from the warp, make them into two-ship stacks, if they aren't already.


If we're going for pure simplicity, then we can make one that's even shorter than the original:

You have the power of Mass. As the offense or an ally, use this power when sending ships into the encounter. You may send only one ship.

As a main player or ally, use this power after encounter cards are revealed. Each of your ships counts as 4 toward your side's total instead of 1.

When collecting compensation or rewards, each of your ships is worth two ships.


Taking out three whole sentences and reducing it to one paragraph.

We discussed this in a previous thread on fixing the Macron as well. "What?!? You mean the Macron can send up to 4 ships into an encounter? Isn't that way too powerful?" Compare to Virus and Leviathan and other combat powers: Macron would add up to 12 as a main player or ally. Leviathan adds 20 as offense only. Virus adds a variable amount that can easily be 20 or more as a main player (4 ships + Attack 08 = 12 normally, or (4x8) 32 for the Virus, that's +20).
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Carsten
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Phil Fleischmann wrote:
Taking out three whole sentences and reducing it to one paragraph.
We would need a new super flare in that case.

All options considered I will use the 2 two ship limit and remove the double compensation and rewards rule for now.
 
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Carsten
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Here's a new version without a launch limit, which is competitive and keeps the flavor:

Macron wrote:
One or All Ships are Worth 4

You have the power of Mass. As the offense or an ally, when sending ships into the encounter, declare one of them to be a mass generating ship.

As the offense or an ally, use this power after encounter cards are revealed. Your mass generating ship counts as 4 toward your side's total instead of 1.

As the defense, use this power after encounter cards are revealed. Each of your ships counts as 4 toward your side's total instead of 1.

Wild: As a main player or ally, after your side reveals an attack card, you may add 1 to your side's total for each ship you have in the encounter. (unchanged)

Super: As the offense or an ally, when sending ships into the encounter, declare all of them to be mass generating ships.
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Just a Bill
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I don't know ... I see what you're trying to accomplish (sending more ships while keeping the numbers in the ballpark), but it creates some overhead; and a core effect of just adding +3 on offense isn't really doing a lot for me (it fails the so-called "Human test").

I'm actually starting to like Phil's last suggestion:
You have the power of Mass. As a main player or ally, use this power after encounter cards are revealed. Each of your ships counts as 4 toward your side's total instead of 1.


It's very pithy (could there possibly be a simpler solution for Macron? I don't think so), and very close to the original concept; just without the original limitation that probably was never really needed in the first place. Dumping the compensation/rewards doubling lets these monsters shine as pure, stompy combat aliens that truly "scoff at the fragile intelligences they crush." As a memorable founding-fifteen alien, Macron should be elegantly devastating.

And as Phil points out, it's still probably not as scary as Leviathan or Virus (or Crystal or Industrialist or ...), and becomes less so as the game wears on and ship scarcity becomes more of an issue.

This would of course need a new super flare. Perhaps "You may send up to five ships to the hyperspace gate instead of four" would be sufficient, and a pretty logical update of the original Eon super. (Plus it gets a bit more mileage out of the star on the alliance dials.)
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Carsten
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Bill Martinson wrote:
I'm actually starting to like Phil's last suggestion:
[...]
And as Phil points out, it's still probably not as scary as Leviathan or Virus (or Crystal or Industrialist or ...), and becomes less so as the game wears on and ship scarcity becomes more of an issue.

I had forgotten about Phil's solution and I like it, because I want iconic Macron to have a fighting chance against the powers you mentioned. On the other hand this would lead to Warrior, Symbiote, Human, Zombie, and the like to fall further behind and become obsolete, but I could live with that.

I'll continue experimenting and play testing before reaching my final verdict.
 
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Joseph Doherty
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Like others here have said, that does seem too strong in that it makes it hard to ever lose your power from lack of home colonies. A slight deviation from it could be as followed:
       When you are to lose ships to the warp for non-combat reasons(like powers, flares,etc.), use this power to only send half of them(rounded down). The remaining will stay in their current location, if valid. You still collect compensation.
 
And something that I felt would fix some other oddities that Macron has with other powers was the slight alteration below:
When in combat, your ships are worth four ships.

This isn't the most elegant design I know due to stepping on Zombie' and Bulwark's toes, but it does cover the primary weaknesses that Macron has while not destroying his flavor either. What do you guy's think?

*Edit: grammar and clarifying that I'm talking about the OP.
*Edit 2: found more bad grammar
 
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