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Subject: Is this Legal? rss

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Lucien Copus
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Today I gave the clue "rhyming 3" for the words POUND SOUND COMPOUND.

Is that legit? I wasn't sure as it's not using the definitions of the word, but I thought I was probably ok. No bias...
 
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No, it doesn't relate to the meaning of the word.
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Brian Nguyen
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Yeah it's in the rules that you have to use the meaning of the word and nothing else.
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Lucien Copus
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Cool, simpler answer than I'd thought. Don't own the game and when I was taught the rules originally I didn't remember that one! Essen was too long ago I guess!
 
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Rod Bauer
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tekshi wrote:
Yeah it's in the rules that you have to use the meaning of the word and nothing else.

The rules that I am reading don't say that the clue has to be the "meaning" of the word. It just says that it has to "relate" to the word. Later in the rules it does use the phrase, "Your clue must be about the meaning of the words." But then gives some valid examples such as a clue of "X" for the word "RAY", and the clue: "8" for the word "Figure", or "Ball". So you could go for two words by using the clue: "8, two" to relate to "Figure" and "Ball". Clearly the the clue "8" is not using the meaning of the words Figure, or Ball, but these are considered valid clues.
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Peter Hazlewood
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Very tricky. I would probably let this one go in a game because it's a nice clue. However, the rule of thumb if you're not sure if your clue is acceptable is to check with the other spymaster if they're ok with it. If they are, go ahead. If they're not, think of another clue.
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Paul Newsham
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rod3556lhs wrote:
tekshi wrote:
Yeah it's in the rules that you have to use the meaning of the word and nothing else.

The rules that I am reading don't say that the clue has to be the "meaning" of the word. It just says that it has to "relate" to the word. Later in the rules it does use the phrase, "Your clue must be about the meaning of the words." But then gives some valid examples such as a clue of "X" for the word "RAY", and the clue: "8" for the word "Figure", or "Ball". So you could go for two words by using the clue: "8, two" to relate to "Figure" and "Ball". Clearly the the clue "8" is not using the meaning of the words Figure, or Ball, but these are considered valid clues.


Of course it's using the meaning. An 8 ball is a type of ball, and the clue 8 relates to the word ball no matter where it is or what other words are on the table.

By contrast, the clue "rhyming" only makes sense because there are other words in play that rhyme with it. It's a clue about the way the word sounds, and therefore isn't a legal clue.
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Clive Clive
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A good test for this is the same as for pictomania I think.

Imagine the words were written in a different language - does your clue still make sense?

If not, it's not allowed.
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Henry Dove
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This relating to the meaning of the word is confusing. For instance if I said Hogwarts 4 and the words were pupil, witch, school and cloak. I could argue that it does not mean cloak. I don't think rhyming should work though.
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mfl134
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DoveBar wrote:
This relating to the meaning of the word is confusing. For instance if I said Hogwarts 4 and the words were pupil, witch, school and cloak. I could argue that it does not mean cloak. I don't think rhyming should work though.


it doesn't have to be the definition, but the meaning. Hogwarts is a school where people wear cloaks.

It isn't a matter of if you can argue it doesn't work. It is a matter of if you can argue it does work. As long as the clue giver is trying, it should be good.
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Alison Mandible
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DoveBar wrote:
This relating to the meaning of the word is confusing. For instance if I said Hogwarts 4 and the words were pupil, witch, school and cloak. I could argue that it does not mean cloak.


The connection is still via the meaning of the words, even if it's a tenuous connection.
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Glenn Darrin
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DoveBar wrote:
This relating to the meaning of the word is confusing. For instance if I said Hogwarts 4 and the words were pupil, witch, school and cloak. I could argue that it does not mean cloak. I don't think rhyming should work though.


Going strictly by that rationale, Hogwarts does not relate specifically to any of those words. Were you to look up pupil, witch, school or cloak in a dictionary, nowhere would you find Hogwarts in any of their definitions. In fact, Hogwarts isn't really even a word in itself. Only in the context of the book and movie franchise does their relationship make any sense. So what do you do? Common sense, best judgment and spirit of the rules I guess is the way to go.
 
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Paul Chee
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I don't think that rhyme relates to the words you listed per se, but personally in my group I think we would house rule it to be allowed.

I think in a game elements of creativity should be encouraged, but not to the point where it will break the game. This seems to be a relatively rare situation where the OP has managed to find a link between the words through a property of the word and has managed to express it with one word (which is actually not easy), and so i believe is a desirable behaviour.

Things which are not a desirable behaviour for example would be like, in Pictionary you draw a series of simple words where you take only the first letter of the simple word and use them to spell out the word that they are supposed to guess. Or in Charades where youjust mouth the words to a lip reader. That goes against the spirit of the game.

So here probably the contention is to what extent the physical property of the word (the spelling, the pronunciation) is allowed to be used in this game. I guess in the end this should be played according to the group's comfort level (but imho since the OP has come up with a creative way to do this he should be rewarded, though I don't think this plays strictly by the rules.)
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Des Lee
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Personally I would allow it. In my opinion, if you're resourceful enough to link a series of words using PROPERTIES of said words, I would be happy to allow it.

I agree with Paul Chee that in cases where you're just trying to cheat, it shouldn't be allowed, but this particular case I think is ok. You're keeping to the one-word nature of the clue and following the other hard rules, it's ok by me.

YMMV.
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mfl134
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losfp wrote:
Personally I would allow it. In my opinion, if you're resourceful enough to link a series of words using PROPERTIES of said words, I would be happy to allow it.

I agree with Paul Chee that in cases where you're just trying to cheat, it shouldn't be allowed, but this particular case I think is ok. You're keeping to the one-word nature of the clue and following the other hard rules, it's ok by me.

YMMV.


Just note that if you make it easier to give clues you skew the game. Depending on how many rounds it normally takes, it will determine which team is helped more.


Properties aren't meanings. But you can play however you choose.
 
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Grant
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thexcuriousxwanderer wrote:
I don't think that rhyme relates to the words you listed per se, but personally in my group I think we would house rule it to be allowed.

I think in a game elements of creativity should be encouraged, but not to the point where it will break the game. This seems to be a relatively rare situation where the OP has managed to find a link between the words through a property of the word and has managed to express it with one word (which is actually not easy), and so i believe is a desirable behaviour.

Things which are not a desirable behaviour for example would be like, in Pictionary you draw a series of simple words where you take only the first letter of the simple word and use them to spell out the word that they are supposed to guess. Or in Charades where youjust mouth the words to a lip reader. That goes against the spirit of the game.

So here probably the contention is to what extent the physical property of the word (the spelling, the pronunciation) is allowed to be used in this game. I guess in the end this should be played according to the group's comfort level (but imho since the OP has come up with a creative way to do this he should be rewarded, though I don't think this plays strictly by the rules.)


Ok, so you want to reward creativity, I can understand that. But after the first time it happens, it's no longer creative. Spy Masters will always look for the quick easy clue of rhyming their words together. Would you continue to allow it after that?
 
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P Santos
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grant5 wrote:
thexcuriousxwanderer wrote:
I don't think that rhyme relates to the words you listed per se, but personally in my group I think we would house rule it to be allowed.

I think in a game elements of creativity should be encouraged, but not to the point where it will break the game. This seems to be a relatively rare situation where the OP has managed to find a link between the words through a property of the word and has managed to express it with one word (which is actually not easy), and so i believe is a desirable behaviour.

Things which are not a desirable behaviour for example would be like, in Pictionary you draw a series of simple words where you take only the first letter of the simple word and use them to spell out the word that they are supposed to guess. Or in Charades where youjust mouth the words to a lip reader. That goes against the spirit of the game.

So here probably the contention is to what extent the physical property of the word (the spelling, the pronunciation) is allowed to be used in this game. I guess in the end this should be played according to the group's comfort level (but imho since the OP has come up with a creative way to do this he should be rewarded, though I don't think this plays strictly by the rules.)


Ok, so you want to reward creativity, I can understand that. But after the first time it happens, it's no longer creative. Spy Masters will always look for the quick easy clue of rhyming their words together. Would you continue to allow it after that?


What rule does this violate, if the group is playing under "Flexible Rules"?
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Brian Nguyen
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ppsantos wrote:
grant5 wrote:
thexcuriousxwanderer wrote:
I don't think that rhyme relates to the words you listed per se, but personally in my group I think we would house rule it to be allowed.

I think in a game elements of creativity should be encouraged, but not to the point where it will break the game. This seems to be a relatively rare situation where the OP has managed to find a link between the words through a property of the word and has managed to express it with one word (which is actually not easy), and so i believe is a desirable behaviour.

Things which are not a desirable behaviour for example would be like, in Pictionary you draw a series of simple words where you take only the first letter of the simple word and use them to spell out the word that they are supposed to guess. Or in Charades where youjust mouth the words to a lip reader. That goes against the spirit of the game.

So here probably the contention is to what extent the physical property of the word (the spelling, the pronunciation) is allowed to be used in this game. I guess in the end this should be played according to the group's comfort level (but imho since the OP has come up with a creative way to do this he should be rewarded, though I don't think this plays strictly by the rules.)


Ok, so you want to reward creativity, I can understand that. But after the first time it happens, it's no longer creative. Spy Masters will always look for the quick easy clue of rhyming their words together. Would you continue to allow it after that?


What rule does this violate, if the group is playing under "Flexible Rules"?


The core rule that says clues have to relate to the meaning of the word.
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P Santos
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But that's only if the group is playing under one of the many suggested ways -- "Firm Rules". Under "Flexible Rules", (which you can use, because the rules say "different groups may prefer to play the game differently), it does not require the clues be related to the meaning of the word. In fact, under "Rhymes" heading, 2nd paragraph, the rules say "Some people like to allow any kind of rhyming clue".

Again, I don't see any rules violation, at least if you play it under "Flexible Rules" which was the context of my question . If you play it under "Firm Rules", (which again is just one of the many possible ways to play Codenames, - not a 'core' rule), it's not valid.
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Grant
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ppsantos wrote:
grant5 wrote:
thexcuriousxwanderer wrote:
I don't think that rhyme relates to the words you listed per se, but personally in my group I think we would house rule it to be allowed.

I think in a game elements of creativity should be encouraged, but not to the point where it will break the game. This seems to be a relatively rare situation where the OP has managed to find a link between the words through a property of the word and has managed to express it with one word (which is actually not easy), and so i believe is a desirable behaviour.

Things which are not a desirable behaviour for example would be like, in Pictionary you draw a series of simple words where you take only the first letter of the simple word and use them to spell out the word that they are supposed to guess. Or in Charades where youjust mouth the words to a lip reader. That goes against the spirit of the game.

So here probably the contention is to what extent the physical property of the word (the spelling, the pronunciation) is allowed to be used in this game. I guess in the end this should be played according to the group's comfort level (but imho since the OP has come up with a creative way to do this he should be rewarded, though I don't think this plays strictly by the rules.)


Ok, so you want to reward creativity, I can understand that. But after the first time it happens, it's no longer creative. Spy Masters will always look for the quick easy clue of rhyming their words together. Would you continue to allow it after that?


What rule does this violate, if the group is playing under "Flexible Rules"?

Did I say it violated the flexible rules? I asked a specific person why they allow it in their game, considering it's not creative or original after the first time someone does it. In fact, it's pretty lazy clue-giving, so I was curious why some people like playing that way.
 
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ppsantos wrote:
If you play it under "Firm Rules", (which again is just one of the many possible ways to play Codenames, - not a 'core' rule), it's not valid.

I don't believe that's how the rules are intended to be read. You don't choose whether to play the "firm rules" or "flexible rules." Rather, the firm rules are firm in that they should always be used for every group. The flexible rules can be independently used or not used depending on what you prefer, and your group should decide how you will apply each of the five flexible rules before you begin, to avoid disagreements.
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P Santos
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I posted this answer in another rules question.

JonBob wrote:
ppsantos wrote:
If you play it under "Firm Rules", (which again is just one of the many possible ways to play Codenames, - not a 'core' rule), it's not valid.

I don't believe that's how the rules are intended to be read. You don't choose whether to play the "firm rules" or "flexible rules." Rather, the firm rules are firm in that they should always be used for every group. The flexible rules can be independently used or not used depending on what you prefer, and your group should decide how you will apply each of the five flexible rules before you begin, to avoid disagreements.


Right above the "Firm Rules" box, on p6, is the heading "Valid Clues". Since this box is before/above the "Firm Rules" box and "Flexible Rules" box, I take it that it applies to both. The box reads:

We playtested various rules. Some groups like the rules one way. Some like the rules another way. You should experiment to find out what your group likes.

What the above implies to me is that it's up to the players to agree on what ruleset they want to use for defining what is valid or invalid clue. That even the 'Firm Rules' is a choice ('Some like the rules another way'), as long as they agree.

I didn't see anything in the game manual that says 'Flexible Rules' are 'optional supplements to the regular ones'. The manual does not even say what is the 'regular' rule set, at least, as far as what's given starting from page 6 onwards. Again, top of p6 pretty much gives the players the option of choosing what ruleset to follow, without promoting one as 'regular' over another. And maybe, because those boxes (and what's inside of them) are labeled 'Firm' and 'Flexible', I interpret this as a choice. You may interpret it another way: the 'Firm Rules' are the 'standard'/'inviolable'/'core and the 'Flexible Rules' are the areas where a player can have some leeway.
For me, players can agree to play using 'Firm' or 'Flexible' rules or even 'experiment to find out what your group likes'. That players have a choice (Firm or Flexible), as the box under 'Valid Clues' seems to imply, at least to me.

@Grant:
I didn't mean that you said 'it's violating a rule'. In response to your question 'would you continue to allow it after that?', 'why not?' is what I meant. So I asked if it's violating any rule that I'm not aware of. 'Why play that way?' Maybe because that group figured out that it's fun to play that way? We do not need to resort to a judgemental call that sounds like 'my way of playing is better than yours', since the game says that its up to the players to determine what their group likes.
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ppsantos wrote:
I posted this answer in another rules question.

JonBob wrote:
ppsantos wrote:
If you play it under "Firm Rules", (which again is just one of the many possible ways to play Codenames, - not a 'core' rule), it's not valid.

I don't believe that's how the rules are intended to be read. You don't choose whether to play the "firm rules" or "flexible rules." Rather, the firm rules are firm in that they should always be used for every group. The flexible rules can be independently used or not used depending on what you prefer, and your group should decide how you will apply each of the five flexible rules before you begin, to avoid disagreements.


Right above the "Firm Rules" box, on p6, is the heading "Valid Clues". Since this box is before/above the "Firm Rules" box and "Flexible Rules" box, I take it that it applies to both. The box reads:

We playtested various rules. Some groups like the rules one way. Some like the rules another way. You should experiment to find out what your group likes.

What the above implies to me is that it's up to the players to agree on what ruleset they want to use for defining what is valid or invalid clue. That even the 'Firm Rules' is a choice ('Some like the rules another way'), as long as they agree.

I didn't see anything in the game manual that says 'Flexible Rules' are 'optional supplements to the regular ones'. The manual does not even say what is the 'regular' rule set, at least, as far as what's given starting from page 6 onwards. Again, top of p6 pretty much gives the players the option of choosing what ruleset to follow, without promoting one as 'regular' over another. And maybe, because those boxes (and what's inside of them) are labeled 'Firm' and 'Flexible', I interpret this as a choice. You may interpret it another way: the 'Firm Rules' are the 'standard'/'inviolable'/'core and the 'Flexible Rules' are the areas where a player can have some leeway.
For me, players can agree to play using 'Firm' or 'Flexible' rules or even 'experiment to find out what your group likes'. That players have a choice (Firm or Flexible), as the box under 'Valid Clues' seems to imply, at least to me.

@Grant:
I didn't mean that you said 'it's violating a rule'. In response to your question 'would you continue to allow it after that?', 'why not?' is what I meant. So I asked if it's violating any rule that I'm not aware of. 'Why play that way?' Maybe because that group figured out that it's fun to play that way? We do not need to resort to a judgemental call that sounds like 'my way of playing is better than yours', since the game says that its up to the players to determine what their group likes.


I feel like you're misinterpreting firm rules somehow. Firm rules are essentially the core rules as in the rules that the designer had in mind when playing the game.

If you want to ignore those rules that are fine, but just realize you are going against what the designer had in mind when playing the game.

He does say, you can change the rules how you want to best fit your group, BUT if you want to follow the spirit of the game, you should follow the firm rules.

If you don't care about that, that's fine.
 
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P Santos
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tekshi wrote:
I feel like you're misinterpreting firm rules somehow.


I gave quotes directly from the manual to support my interpretation, even though you might disagree with my interpretation.

tekshi wrote:
Firm rules are essentially the core rules as in the rules that the designer had in mind when playing the game.


I already gave my angle on this 'core rules' (was it on another similar thread?). Claims that this is a 'core rule' is too a bold claim. What makes it a 'core rule'? Because it was labeled 'Firm Rules' and the other was labelled 'Flexible Rules'? Page 4 of Game Play, labelled 'GIVING A CLUE', does not even require the clue be about the meaning of the word. It says '...think of a one-word clue that relates to some of the words your team is trying to guess". For me, anything before page 6 are not options and as such they are 'core'. But anything after that, they are options (at least to me they are because of statement of the manual:'Some groups like the rules one way; Some like the rules another way').

tekshi wrote:
If you want to ignore those rules that are fine,


Another bold claim there. "Ignore"? You make it sound like I'm doing this on a whimsical basis. I stated my interpretation, based on the manual. You might not agree, but don't jump to the conclusion that I ignore the rules.


tekshi wrote:
but just realize you are going against what the designer had in mind when playing the game.


Another bold claim there. Who can say what the designer exactly had in mind? The manual (p7, under "Rhymes" 2nd paragraph) even states "Some people like to allow any kind of rhyming clue", implying that it's not wrong, as long as players agree. I don't think anyone can claim that that is not what the designer had in mind.

tekshi wrote:
He does say, you can change the rules how you want to best fit your group,


Yep, that's mentioned in the rules.

tekshi wrote:
BUT if you want to follow the spirit of the game, you should follow the firm rules.


Nope, that is not mentioned in the rules. So let's be clear: It is your opinion.

So what's my point in all of these? My point is: I don't think anyone should automatically judge that you're playing the game wrongly just because your clue was not about the meaning of the word. The game allows for that, under the 'Flexible Rules' ('any kind of rhyming clue'). Players can choose what suits their group. That much is said in the rules. What's not said, however, is judging that if I don't like the way you play, you must be playing it incorrectly. Which of course is wrong supposition.
 
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Holy smokes Santos, I think this is the second thread where you've had the exact same argument? Just play the game however you want. You don't need to convince anyone else that your interpretation of the rules is the supremely correct one.

ppsantos wrote:

@Grant:
I didn't mean that you said 'it's violating a rule'. In response to your question 'would you continue to allow it after that?', 'why not?' is what I meant. So I asked if it's violating any rule that I'm not aware of. 'Why play that way?' Maybe because that group figured out that it's fun to play that way? We do not need to resort to a judgemental call that sounds like 'my way of playing is better than yours', since the game says that its up to the players to determine what their group likes.

If you're going to get this involved in a question I was asking someone else, the least you could do is bother to pay attention the the context. That person said he thought the use of rhymes or whatever we were even talking about was creative, and that's why he allowed it. I just asked if he thought it was a good idea to continue to allow it after it's no longer creative. If he had said he allowed it because "rhyming is fun, we like rhyming!" then that would be something else entirely, now wouldn't it?
 
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