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Pandemic Legacy: Season 1» Forums » Rules

Subject: Outbreak timing question rss

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Gamer D

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So I'm on my second playthrough of Pandemic Legacy (awesome game!) with a different group and we had our first loss. We unfortunately lost in May due to having one too many outbreaks.

I won't get into spoilers or anything, but suffice to say that the timing of how the final Outbreak is handled actually mattered. Specifically, we weren't sure about the order of the following:

- Infection card is drawn and it is a city with three diseases. Outbreak occurs.

- Outbreak marker moves up one

- New diseases are placed on adjacent cities

- If the outbreak marker is on the skull the game ends in a loss.


So what I couldn't find for sure was if the marker is moved to the skull first and the game ends immediately prior to actually placing new diseases on adjacent cities or if you place diseases on all the adjacent cities first and then move the outbreak marker up to the skull and end the game. (In normal Pandemic the order wouldn't matter, but because of some bits in the Legacy portion of the game it actually matters if the disease spreads before the loss.)

Anyway I'm sure there's something I'm overlooking in the rules or the forums, if there's an official answer I'm curious to hear it. We just assumed that the correct way to play was probably to spread the adjacent diseases first and then end the game.

P.S. No chain outbreak was involved, the rules are definitely clear that you don't chain outbreak once you hit the skull on the meter. Just one outbreak occurred.
 
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Luke
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Page 13 of the rules, Outbreak marker moves first, then cubes are placed in adjacent cities.

Page 14 of the rules, game immediately ends when the marker reaches the skull, but you only increase the panic level for each of the first 8 outbreaking cities.
 
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Tobias
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However I believe your actual question is answered differently in the April section of the FAQ: https://boardgamegeek.com/thread/1470601/compiled-faq-spoile...:

Spoiler (click to reveal)

If a faded city outbreaks as the 8th outbreak, will adjacent cities become faded?
[CONFIRMED] Yes.
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Clive Jones

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(NB: Link goes to a thread with spoilers up to the end of April.)

I went into some detail about this in another thread, and Matt Leacock confirmed the details I gave were correct.
 
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Tobias
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hm... I have troubles understanding how this would be handled in this situation then:

Spoiler (click to reveal)
Do adjacent cities to the city which had the 8th outbreak become faded? The FAQ says yes, the first reply in this thread says no (since the game ends when moving the outbreak marker and before trying to place faded). Which then is true?

I think the part of your post that you refer to is "But the rules also make it (fairly) clear that that eighth outbreak does happen in its entirety.". Where is this in the rules?

I kind of agree with the OP. On page 13 the rules say that the first thing you do during an outbreak is move the outbreak marker. On page 14 the rules say that the game ends immediately once the outbreak marker reaches the 8th space. So adjacent cities of the 8th outbreak shouldn't become faded. However, the FAQ clearly says otherwise.
 
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Robert Stewart
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The rules for Outbreaks appear to be imprecise about timing - if you compare the PL rulebook with the vanilla Pandemic rulebook, it's clear that the Outbreak section of the PL rulebook just copies the vanilla Outbreak rules and then talks about the additional things that happen/matter in PL - in vanilla Pandemic, the timing of the loss to Outbreaks is a moot point - nothing can happen during an Outbreak or Outbreak Chain that could prevent the loss, and, with the game over, there are no consequences of doing additional processing after the loss is locked in.

Come Legacy, and Scars, Panic and Spoilers all mean that the amount of processing you do for a game-ending Outbreak (Chain) matters - but the only timing note in the rules for that is that you stop processing any Chain Outbreaks after the one that satisfies the endgame condition.

Rulings have been fairly consistent that you do completely process any Outbreaks up to and including the game-ending one, except that you don't chain into further Outbreaks. So Scars and Panic still get applied and, as it turns out, so do these Spoilers.
 
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Clive Jones

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therobbot wrote:
I think the part of your post that you refer to is "But the rules also make it (fairly) clear that that eighth outbreak does happen in its entirety.". Where is this in the rules?

As I say, it's only fairly clear. It's not stated explicitly. But this is also not a situation where there's an obvious default to choose if the rules don't say otherwise, so we have to use the clues we're given.

Carefully picking apart the Outbreaks section, I can identify four sections which I find suggestive.

Firstly, note that these two parts...
The rules wrote:
When a disease outbreak occurs, move the outbreaks marker forward 1 space on the Outbreaks Track. Then, place 1 cube of the disease color on every city connected to the city.
[...]
When a chain reaction outbreak occurs, first move the outbreaks marker forward 1 space. Then, place cubes as above, except[...]

...suggest that you place the cubes unconditionally. The rules could have chosen that point to mention the outbreaks marker hitting its endstop, but they did not.

When they do mention it, they say:
Quote:
If the outbreaks marker reaches the last space of the Outbreaks ~ Track, the game ends and your team has lost!

Notice the absence of the word "immediately", there. (Unforutnately, it is present in the summary under "GAME END", but that's directly contradicted by other parts of the rules.)

The final part I note is:
Quote:
Increase the panic level of all cities that have an outbreak. If the game would end due to outbreaks, only increase the panic level for the first 8 outbreaks. If more than 8 cities would outbreak (due to chain reactions) players may choose which cities outbreak and increase their panic level, stopping when you get to the 8th outbreak.

That states the eighth outbreak does happen. And it's explicit, in particular, that the panic level rises in an eighth city. Panic level rising is a later step in the outbreak process than placing cubes in adjacent cities, so the game clearly hasn't ended as "immediately" as one might have expected.

I agree my interpretation is a bit of a stretch. Hence my relief at having confirmation from Matt Leacock before people started to pick holes in it. (-8

I feel the rulebook could have been a lot clearer surrounding the precise workings and interactions of infection, epidemics, outbreaks and game end conditions. Ah well. Maybe they'll tighten it up for Season 2?
 
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Tobias
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clivej wrote:

The final part I note is:
Quote:
Increase the panic level of all cities that have an outbreak. If the game would end due to outbreaks, only increase the panic level for the first 8 outbreaks. If more than 8 cities would outbreak (due to chain reactions) players may choose which cities outbreak and increase their panic level, stopping when you get to the 8th outbreak.

That states the eighth outbreak does happen. And it's explicit, in particular, that the panic level rises in an eighth city. Panic level rising is a later step in the outbreak process than placing cubes in adjacent cities, so the game clearly hasn't ended as "immediately" as one might have expected.


Hm... I still kind of disagree. The Panic Level is not part of the "first do this, then do that" part. It is not even part of the game but part of the meta-game so this can be done once the game is finished. However, putting diseases to adjacent cities is part of the game so I feel it shouldn't happen anymore because of the "immediately" in the "Game End" part.

But maybe since the spoiler is also part of the Meta-Game it makes sense that it happens. Anyway, we will play it like this but I don't find it clear from the rules at all. Maybe they should hire a lawyer to read the rules for Season 2.
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Gamer D

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therobbot wrote:
However I believe your actual question is answered differently in the April section of the FAQ: https://boardgamegeek.com/thread/1470601/compiled-faq-spoile...:

Spoiler (click to reveal)

If a faded city outbreaks as the 8th outbreak, will adjacent cities become faded?
[CONFIRMED] Yes.


Thanks, this is just what I was wondering about. Sounds like we did it correctly.
 
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Matt Leacock
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therobbot wrote:
[q="clivej"]
But maybe since the spoiler is also part of the Meta-Game it makes sense that it happens. Anyway, we will play it like this but I don't find it clear from the rules at all. Maybe they should hire a lawyer to read the rules for Season 2.


Perhaps we shall!
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Robert Stewart
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mleacock wrote:
therobbot wrote:
[q="clivej"]
But maybe since the spoiler is also part of the Meta-Game it makes sense that it happens. Anyway, we will play it like this but I don't find it clear from the rules at all. Maybe they should hire a lawyer to read the rules for Season 2.


Perhaps we shall!


Or at least a couple of rules-lawyer munchkins
 
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Gamer D

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rmsgrey wrote:
mleacock wrote:
therobbot wrote:
[q="clivej"]
But maybe since the spoiler is also part of the Meta-Game it makes sense that it happens. Anyway, we will play it like this but I don't find it clear from the rules at all. Maybe they should hire a lawyer to read the rules for Season 2.


Perhaps we shall!


Or at least a couple of rules-lawyer munchkins


Maybe Season 2 will have a Lawyer character? Their special ability could involve suing insurance companies for the victims of diseases to increase event funding.
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Clive Jones

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I've previously suggested Season 1 should perhaps have had three rulebooks, not just one:

• Rules for the basic game (as amended for Pandemic Legacy)
• What's changed for Legacy in the basic game's rules
• The Legacy rulebook

That way, players new to Pandemic could learn it using just the basic-game rulebook, which would be an easier learning experience than reading the Legacy rulebook and trying to ignore all the Legacy bits. Players used to normal Pandemic could read the second document to avoid overlooking any of the changes. And nobody would need to read all three.

Maybe the first two documents could contain some kind of special marker at each point where Legacy is going to introduce new rules.


Now I'm thinking that maybe the Legacy rulebook should also be split in two:
• Learning the Legacy rules
• Precise, step-by-step, legalistic procedures for everything one does in Legacy

The second book would then be the one players went to for answers to questions arising during play.


I think something similar might also be good for Season 2, not that I yet know anything about how it might work compared with Season 1. But it would also then be really great to have something which highlighted any important changes to the basic rules or the legacy rules from Season 1.
 
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