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Zombicide: Black Plague» Forums » Rules

Subject: Apples and Water...truly food for thought... rss

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Chuck Hurd
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These make for a fine meal, but do you think it requires an action to use either of them? "Discard to gain the effect" = free action?

If you decide to tuck one into your backpack to use later do you have to use an action to get it out so you can use it?
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Boyd Garrett
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I don't have the rules handy to give you a page number and quote, but it does not cost anything to discard a card. You can discard as many cards as you like, whenever you want.

So - you can discard those apples, that water, and that salted beef as soon as you get them for that sweet, sweet experience. Or trade them away to Samson because he's still in blue. C'mon Samson, contribute.
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Raph Moimoi
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Carcking wrote:
These make for a fine meal, but do you think it requires an action to use either of them? "Discard to gain the effect" = free action?

If you decide to tuck one into your backpack to use later do you have to use an action to get it out so you can use it?


Discarding Equipment cards is free and can be done anytime even if it's not your turn.

Page 17 : " You may discard cards from your inventory to make room for new cards at any time, for free (even during another player’s Turn) "
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Son Do
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Confirm that using and then discarding a molotov costs an action?
 
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Chuck Hurd
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I found the rule on page 17:
"You may discard cards from your inventory to make room for new cards at any time, for free (even during another player’s Turn)."

But now this raises two questions:
1. Can you only discard cards to make room? Or can it be done even if you have spare room?

2. You can also discard Dragon Bile and the Torch to make Dragon Fire. These do require an action. I believe it is stated on the cards. Can anyone look at a copy of the card to see if it says must be "discarded from hand"? We've been playing that you have to have those equipped in order to discard them. Now I'm wondering if that is correct, and if you can just discard them from your backpack, even off-turn, to create dragon fire.

Edit: The cards do say you must discard them from hand and you must spend an action. Clear enough.

That leaves my question #1 remaining.

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William Curtis
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Using the 1-shot food/water is free, Making the Dragon Bile is an action as it is an attack basically.
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Raph Moimoi
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Carcking wrote:
I found the rule on page 17:
"You may discard cards from your inventory to make room for new cards at any time, for free (even during another player’s Turn)."

But now this raises two questions:
1. Can you only discard cards to make room? Or can it be done even if you have spare room?

2. You can also discard Dragon Bile and the Torch to make Dragon Fire. These do require an action. I believe it is stated on the cards. Can anyone look at a copy of the card to see if it says must be "discarded from hand"? We've been playing that you have to have those equipped in order to discard them. Now I'm wondering if that is correct, and if you can just discard them from your backpack, even off-turn, to create dragon fire.


You need to have Dragon Bile in Hand (written on the card), then spend 1 action to throw it. Same thinf to throw the Torch.
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Jonathan Bailey
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Glad a skimmed the rule book real quick, because I was about to make a different argument, but....

Water has a backpack symbol (I assume the same is true for Apple. Per page 17 of the rule book "an equipment card bearing the Backpack symbol can only be stored in the Backpack, and while there is always considered to be in use." Therefore, food cards cannot require an action to be "rearranged" to your hands, since they can only be stored in the backpack.

Carcking wrote:
I found the rule on page 17:
"You may discard cards from your inventory to make room for new cards at any time, for free (even during another player’s Turn)."
.....
Can you only discard cards to make room? Or can it be done even if you have spare room?


Whether discarding cards is a free action is a trickier question. The only thing that would necessitate discarding to make room for new cards would be searching or trading, both of which do require spending an action point. So the question becomes, is discarding included in the search and trade actions, and therefore can only be performed as a part of those, or is it a free action that can be performed at will any time during the players' phase?
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Jorgen Peddersen
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I think the discussion here went off on a tangent and many are over-complicating the issue. You don't need to use the discard rules from the rulebook to figure this out, just look at the text on the card and similar cards.

Both the Dragon Bile and Torch state that you must use an action if you want to use them for their affect. The food and water Equipment does not state this, simply stating that you may discard them to gain the XP.

Thus, the food and water Equipment does not require an action to use. Once the Equipment is in your backpack, you can use its affect at any time. If it were to use an action, it would state that as part of the text on the card, just like Dragon Bile and Torch do. In addition, you can certainly discard the food and water cards without using the effect on the card too, via the rule in the rulebook.

Edit: One additional thing I just thought of... If your Backpack is already full and you Search and find one of the food or water Equipment cards, you cannot gain the XP by discarding it while keeping all your other Equipment. You must insert it into your Backpack first, making room by discarding something else, then you may use it by discarding the food/water to gain the XP. You will be left with one empty slot in the Backpack.
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Chuck Hurd
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Clipper wrote:
...the food and water Equipment does not require an action to use. Once the Equipment is in your backpack, you can use its affect at any time.

The way the "any time" rule is written though seems to be putting a condition on it - that of needing to clear space in your backpack. That would indicate that you need access to the backpack by causing it to overflow either by searching or trading off-turn. We would have to rule that the "any time" rule is conditionless - and so would need to ignore part of the rule text. Or to rule that food and water transcend that condition.

Clipper wrote:
Edit: One additional thing I just thought of... If your Backpack is already full and you Search and find one of the food or water Equipment cards, you cannot gain the XP by discarding it while keeping all your other Equipment. You must insert it into your Backpack first, making room by discarding something else, then you may use it by discarding the food/water to gain the XP. You will be left with one empty slot in the Backpack.

I hadn't even considered this. I don't know if I would rule that way but it would make that XP worth something. It seems you could discard it freely when drawn, just as you would discard any other item you didn't want to keep (understanding that torch and dragon bile would have to be taken into hand first though). If we rule as above that food and water transcend the normal conditions, this works.

 
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Jorgen Peddersen
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Here's another rules-backed reason to separate using the Apples (eating them for XP) from discarding them (throwing them away to make room)...

On page 17, the Backpack section includes the following:
Z:BP Rules p17 wrote:
-An Equipment card bearing the Backpack symbol can only be stored in the Backpack, and while there is always considered in use.


This implies that you cannot use Backpack Equipment unless it is in your Backpack. Surely, we must agree that getting the XP from Apples is using the Apples. Thus, if you discard the Apples you just found in a Search instead of putting them in your Backpack, then you won't gain the XP from them.

For this reason, I believe the effects on Apples/Salted Meat/Water are simply things you can activate when you feel like it, provided they are in your Backpack and you aren't in the middle of doing something else.

In other words, it's not an ability that triggers when you discard the Equipment, it's an ability that you trigger at will which forces you to discard the Equipment.
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Chuck Hurd
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Clipper wrote:
Here's another rules-backed reason to separate using the Apples (eating them for XP) from discarding them (throwing them away to make room)...

On page 17, the Backpack section includes the following:
Z:BP Rules p17 wrote:
-An Equipment card bearing the Backpack symbol can only be stored in the Backpack, and while there is always considered in use.

Interesting take but that can also be a clarification that you cannot store a backpack item in hand or the body slot...and not a statement that it must go in the backpack or be unusable.

Clipper wrote:
This implies that you cannot use Backpack Equipment unless it is in your Backpack. Surely, we must agree that getting the XP from Apples is using the Apples. Thus, if you discard the Apples you just found in a Search instead of putting them in your Backpack, then you won't gain the XP from them.

For this reason, I believe the effects on Apples/Salted Meat/Water are simply things you can activate when you feel like it, provided they are in your Backpack and you aren't in the middle of doing something else.

In other words, it's not an ability that triggers when you discard the Equipment, it's an ability that you trigger at will which forces you to discard the Equipment.

The full backpack raises a larger question for other items and trading. We've had occasion to find an item while searching and immediately trade it to someone instead of discarding it or not wanting to discard something else from a full backpack. "Oh damn, another Plenty of Arrows. Who's using a bow?" If an item must "move through" your backpack before you can do anything with it that adds another layer of difficulty. That may not be a bad thing.


 
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Jorgen Peddersen
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Carcking wrote:
The full backpack raises a larger question for other items and trading. We've had occasion to find an item while searching and immediately trade it to someone instead of discarding it or not wanting to discard something else from a full backpack.


This certainly seems wrong. To do this, you need to interrupt your own Search Action with a Reorganise/Trade Action. Zombicide isn't Magic the Gathering and there is no stack or other magical resolution tree allowing this to occur. Like most games of its ilk, Actions (and free Actions, as I consider Apples etc. to be) should be considered atomic and you must complete them before you start another one, unless specified otherwise.

No, I don't have a rules quote to support that, but it is just common sense for these types of games.
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Jonathan Bailey
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Carcking wrote:
The full backpack raises a larger question for other items and trading. We've had occasion to find an item while searching and immediately trade it to someone instead of discarding it or not wanting to discard something else from a full backpack. "Oh damn, another Plenty of Arrows. Who's using a bow?" If an item must "move through" your backpack before you can do anything with it that adds another layer of difficulty. That may not be a bad thing.

Per the rules (p. 19 - Search): "The player draws a card from the Equipment deck. He may then place it in the Survivor's inventory or immediately discard it. ... After searching, the Survivor may freely reorganize his inventory."

So, according to a strict reading of the rules, your only options after drawing an equipment card are to put it in your inventory or discard it, trading is not an option. The free reorganize action may include the option to trade with another survivor, but that would still take place after placing the item into your own inventory. Strictly speaking.
 
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Chuck Hurd
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Clipper wrote:
Carcking wrote:
The full backpack raises a larger question for other items and trading. We've had occasion to find an item while searching and immediately trade it to someone instead of discarding it or not wanting to discard something else from a full backpack.


This certainly seems wrong. To do this, you need to interrupt your own Search Action with a Reorganise/Trade Action.

I get what you are saying and have the same intuition - that it doesn't feel right. You may be on to something then with the idea that you cannot discard food with a full backpack and gain the effect.
 
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Max Maloney
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"If trees could scream, would we be so cavalier about cutting them down? We might, if they screamed all the time, for no good reason." -Jack Handey
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Darkwynd wrote:
The free reorganize action may include the option to trade with another survivor

No way! Reorganizing can be done as an action. It can be done action free as part of Trading and Searching. The does not make Trading or Searching in any way linked to Reorganizing. A free Reorganize from either Trading or Searching in no way implies you can tack on the other action.

I'm with Jorgen on everything in this thread:

- Using food for xp is using it, so it must be in your pack.

- Using food does not take an action, unless errata says otherwise.

- Food can not be used "while searching" to avoid needing pack space for it.
 
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Jorgen Peddersen
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Dormammu wrote:
Darkwynd wrote:
The free reorganize action may include the option to trade with another survivor

No way! Reorganizing can be done as an action. It can be done action free as part of Trading and Searching. The does not make Trading or Searching in any way linked to Reorganizing. A free Reorganize from either Trading or Searching in no way implies you can tack on the other action.

I'm surprised I missed that mistake by Darkwynd. Good Catch! However, while you are correct, your description may confuse as well due to wording, as there is no such thing as a Trade Action, it's actually called the Reorganize/Trade Action.

Let's try to settle all issues describing it this way...

The Action that allows you to reorganize your inventory is called Reorganize/Trade. It allows you and up to one other Survivor in your Zone to reorganize your Equipment and/or trade Equipment between each other.

The Search Action also lets you reorganize your inventory after drawing a new Equipment card.

Now, in the above, pay attention to the capitalisation and bold words. The act of reorganizing is not an action nor a free action. It is just part of both the Reorganize/Trade Action and the Search Action.

So yeah, it's certainly true that you cannot trade during a Search Action. The reorganization you get is not a free Reorganize/Trade action, it just lets you reorganize in the same way a Reorganize/Trade action does.
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Brad Willo
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OoooH! My head hurts.
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Chuck Hurd
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Clipper wrote:
The Action that allows you to reorganize your inventory is called Reorganize/Trade. It allows you and up to one other Survivor in your Zone to reorganize your Equipment and/or trade Equipment between each other.

I agree with everything so far and this has been a worthwhile discussion.

I think the main point out of all of this is searching with a full backpack can create some decision points you hadn't considered before.

Thanks everyone!

(Just want to be careful with the wording in your paragraph here. Taking the Reorganize/Trade action does not automatically allow another player to reorganize. You have to first trade with him (either take or give or both).)

 
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Jorgen Peddersen
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The same way you can trade everything for nothing, I'm fairly certain you can trade nothing for nothing.

The rules say you can exchange any number of cards with your trading partner. 0 is a number.
 
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Chuck Hurd
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Clipper wrote:
The same way you can trade everything for nothing, I'm fairly certain you can trade nothing for nothing.

The rules say you can exchange any number of cards with your trading partner. 0 is a number.

Well, that may be a number but it sure feels like not trading at all. It's an overreach in my view.

Likewise, I wouldn't allow someone to trade Plenty of Arrows to someone for another Plenty of Arrows, just so both parties can reorganize...effectively handing out a free reorganize to another player. It may be legal, but I think that goes beyond the spirit of the rule.

I want to guard against making the game too easy and thereby defeating the game. I'd rather find the intricacies that make it challenging within the rules. I actually have an issue, for example, trading Plenty of Arrows to someone for say, Plenty of Bolts, and then the other player getting a free reorganize of items that have nothing to do with Arrows. It appears legal by the rules but seems to be not in the spirit of things.

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Jonathan Bailey
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Clipper wrote:
Dormammu wrote:
Darkwynd wrote:
The free reorganize action may include the option to trade with another survivor

No way! Reorganizing can be done as an action. It can be done action free as part of Trading and Searching. The does not make Trading or Searching in any way linked to Reorganizing. A free Reorganize from either Trading or Searching in no way implies you can tack on the other action.

I'm surprised I missed that mistake by Darkwynd. Good Catch!

Not a mistake, just pointing out a potential ambiguity in the rules...

Clipper wrote:
However, while you are correct, your description may confuse as well due to wording, as there is no such thing as a Trade Action, it's actually called the Reorganize/Trade Action.

...as you just pointed out. I agree, personally, that Searching does not impute the ability to trade as you reorganize, but some people may read it that way, which was my point.


Carcking wrote:
Clipper wrote:
The same way you can trade everything for nothing, I'm fairly certain you can trade nothing for nothing.

The rules say you can exchange any number of cards with your trading partner. 0 is a number.

Well, that may be a number but it sure feels like not trading at all. It's an overreach in my view.

Agreed, you can't say "Ned is taking a reorganize/trade action to swap out his hatchet for the pistol in his pack, and he's trading nothing with Phil, so Phil can reorganize as well." There's being thorough, being a rules lawyer, and being a munchkin - this example would be the latter.
 
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Jorgen Peddersen
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Sorry about saying it was a mistake, I totally mistook the context after it was singled out. No wonder I 'missed' it in the first place, as it was never there!

As for trading for nothing, I guess we'll need to agree to disagree. I've had situations where I've started a Reorganize/Trade in a Zone with two Survivors predominantly to get something equipped, started moving cards between the two Survivors, and then moved cards back and forth while figuring out the best owner for each card. When done, I suspected I hadn't really changed ownership of any of the cards.

Are you telling me I have to now remember for sure what the original split was and revert the non-Action Survivor back to its original orientation simply because it turns out there were 0 cards actually exchanged between the Survivors?
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Jonathan Bailey
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Clipper wrote:
Sorry about saying it was a mistake, I totally mistook the context after it was singled out. No wonder I 'missed' it in the first place, as it was never there!

No hard feelings, just making sure we all know that I actually agree with you.

Clipper wrote:
As for trading for nothing, I guess we'll need to agree to disagree. I've had situations where I've started a Reorganize/Trade in a Zone with two Survivors predominantly to get something equipped, started moving cards between the two Survivors, and then moved cards back and forth while figuring out the best owner for each card. When done, I suspected I hadn't really changed ownership of any of the cards.

Are you telling me I have to now remember for sure what the original split was and revert the non-Action Survivor back to its original orientation simply because it turns out there were 0 cards actually exchanged between the Survivors?

Strictly speaking? Yes, or else spend one of the non-Action Survivor's action points to compensate for the free reorganization.

Thematically? The idea of action points and a sequence of events doesn't really hold up anyway, it's "gamification" to give the system structure. If you're okay with it, it's your game, do what you like (I've always ignored the "spawn an additional zombie for uneven splits" rule because I think it's stupid). Think of it as one guy saying "here, hold this" and then the other guy taking the opportunity to shift things around at the same time.
 
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J
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Interesting discussions. I like a lot of the ideas but I see the food issue as pretty straightforward.

Card says "Discard to gain"
Search rule says "May immediately discard"

Nothing about having to discard from backpack. Backpack symbol just says I can store it in the backpack only if I don't want to use it immediately. And it makes the most sense "thematically". I can see an apple and just eat the dang thing without it ever going anywhere but my belly!
 
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