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Subject: The problems with a Rebel Veterans pack rss

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Will Beckley
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So I've been thinking today about what might be in the eventual Rebel Veterans pack. It seems like it will be focused on the E-Wing and the T-65 X-Wing. Both ships need love just like the Defender and Bomber do.

Unlike the Defender and Bomber, however, the E-Wing still sees plenty of use, including in the most recent Worlds Finals match. Sure, that's just the strength of Corran Horn, but it still presents the problem that isn't present with the Imperial Veterans pack: how do you buff the E-Wing without overpowering an already-plenty-useful Corran?

The T-65 (which I feel is the likeliest other ship, but less of a lock) presents the problem we're seeing with the recent discussions of the /x1 title on the Tie Advanced Prototype. Namely, how do you elegantly buff the X-Wing without making Poe even stronger than he already is?

After all, Nathan's finals list had both of these pilots. Surely we don't need to see those ships get a significant boost.

Anyhow, it has been rolling around my head today. Curious what folks think.
 
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Jeff Paul
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I'm hoping it will be a double x-wing expansion - like the Interceptor.

The T-65 could use a lot of lovin....
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JH
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Wiyum wrote:
Namely, how do you elegantly buff the X-Wing without making Poe even stronger than he already is?


"T-65 X-wing only"
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Will Beckley
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Sarcasmorator wrote:
Wiyum wrote:
Namely, how do you elegantly buff the X-Wing without making Poe even stronger than he already is?


"T-65 X-wing only"


The problem being that, as there was no idea there would ever be a T-70 when the T-65 cards were conceived, those cards do not say anything other than "X-Wing." A surmountable problem, surely, but, as I stated initially, not easily so in an elegant manner.
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David Stoffey
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I've toyed around with the idea in my head of a card for the E-wing that is... Say -1 point and gives a free EPT slot to E-wings that aren't unique and this card can only be applied to non-umique e-wings. Problem solved?
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Richard Dickson
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Wiyum wrote:
Sarcasmorator wrote:
Wiyum wrote:
Namely, how do you elegantly buff the X-Wing without making Poe even stronger than he already is?


"T-65 X-wing only"


The problem being that, as there was no idea there would ever be a T-70 when the T-65 cards were conceived, those cards do not say anything other than "X-Wing." A surmountable problem, surely, but, as I stated initially, not easily so in an elegant manner.


"Alliance X-Wing Only"

Both X-Wings are Rebel, but T-70s are Resistance, not Alliance.
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Scott S
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"Cannot be equipped if you have the Boost action in your action bar"

And various other ways to prevent the T-70 from being able to use an X-wing fix. The designers are pretty smart, they will know how to do it.
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Will Beckley
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Sithborg wrote:
"Cannot be equipped if you have the Boost action in your action bar"

And various other ways to prevent the T-70 from being able to use an X-wing fix. The designers are pretty smart, they will know how to do it.


My best guess was the same, but with the Tech slot. Gets the job done, it just isn't pretty.
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Will Beckley
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Stoffey wrote:
I've toyed around with the idea in my head of a card for the E-wing that is... Say -1 point and gives a free EPT slot to E-wings that aren't unique and this card can only be applied to non-umique e-wings. Problem solved?


Certainly better than my thinking of restricting it to below a certain PS.
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Matt Asher
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TnT! wrote:
I'm hoping it will be a double x-wing expansion - like the Interceptor.

The T-65 could use a lot of lovin....

XX pack would be awesome.
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Sebastian Grawan
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I think the most probable choice qould be

T-65 X-Wing & E-Wing

or

T-65 X-Wing & Y-Wing
 
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RCH RCH
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theashers wrote:
TnT! wrote:
I'm hoping it will be a double x-wing expansion - like the Interceptor.

The T-65 could use a lot of lovin....

XX pack would be awesome.


XX pack would be tedious for many of us that have been playing since the start of the game.
Most of us bought 2x Core Sets to start plus 2x of the X-wing expansion to fly XXXX lists.
Then the transport came out and gave us a 5th X-wing.

It's the only ship that is currently in THREE of the X-wing products. I hope they don't put it in a fourth product, but if they do, I would hope they would have the sense not to double down and force us to buy two more of them at the same time.

That said, I can't think of a ship that needs more help than the X-wing. My hope is that they pick two other ships and just include cards for the X-wing.
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Will Beckley
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Collection wrote:

That said, I can't think of a ship that needs more help than the X-wing. My hope is that they pick two other ships and just include cards for the X-wing.


It hadn't even occurred to me, but whichever two of the X, Y, and E they choose, all of these carry Astromechs. So that helps all 3 (and the T70).
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Allen T
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For selfish reasons, I hope it is X and Y (Or, less likely, A or B). I have less than 0 interest in Scum or the K-Wing, so my Y-Wings are languishing as Ion Turret ships if they get use at all. I don't like the E-Wing, it is tied with the K-Wing for least attractive ship in the game IMO, so I currently do not own it. As mentioned I already have 5 X-Wings, occasionally using 2 if I play Rebel, which is rare. I already don't need or want a 6th, and if it is packaged with a ship I already haven't felt is worth $8 to me, I probably won't be getting it.
 
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Matthew Cordeiro
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Wiyum wrote:
how do you buff the E-Wing without overpowering an already-plenty-useful Corran?... how do you elegantly buff the X-Wing without making Poe even stronger than he already is?

Astromechs. You always see Corran and Poe with an astromech. If you want to fly them with a new astromech included in a veterans pack, you'd have to remove the astromech they already have, and that probably wouldn't be a good idea.

Also, you could do a special X-Wing-only engine upgrade. Maybe like a 3-point cost, or boost then stress, or a 0-point boost and discard. Corran can't take it, and T-70s have no use for it.
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Sam Cook
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I would bet we see more improvements centered around astromechs since that would improve X-Wings, Y-Wings, and E-Wings all at the same time. Maybe an upgrade similar to Experimental Interface, but cheaper and only lets you do actions on astromech droids.
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chris sabiston
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This is possible but there is another obstacle...

If you added any title or buff and named it "T-65 x-wing" only then neither of the x-wings could use it. All the old T-65's in the ship name bar are only called "x-wing" the t-70's are "T-70 X-Wing".

Per page 20 of the FA starter rules reference under the upgrade cards section, the "entirety" of the ship name must be present on the ship in question to apply one of these types of upgrades. Since neither Ship contains the "T-65" portion in your suggestion this would not work to solve your issue.

They could do this but it would require some very specific Faq to alter the ship names or something.

Sithborg earlier suggested the following...

"Cannot be equipped if you have the Boost action in your action bar"

My only issue here is what if I want to use the new buff on Wedge Antilles? I like putting engine upgrade on him sometimes. So not perfect but possible I suppose.

Richard Dickson suggested...

"Alliance X-Wing Only"
"Both X-Wings are Rebel, but T-70s are Resistance, not Alliance."

This wouldn't work either because of the upgrade rules on page 20 of the Fa rules reference this would mean a ship would either need to have the word alliance in its name or they would have to faq it again. Something like this might work in a different way, I like what you tried to do here, in fact on second thought since they defined the card differences between Alliance and Resistance in the new rules you might be able to do it like this.

"Alliance only.
X-Wing only."

This way it references faction separately from ship name sort of like when it says Rebel only. But so far I like this suggestion the best Since if I am correct it wouldn't require a faq.



P.s. I do so want my T-65's to see more table time than the random Wedge or Biggs I decide to fly on league night. I misses them, so I would love to see FFg figure this out.
 
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Val Cassotta
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Collection wrote:
It's the only ship that is currently in THREE of the X-wing products. I hope they don't put it in a fourth product, but if they do, I would hope they would have the sense not to double down and force us to buy two more of them at the same time.


Aside from the TIE Fighter (Core, TIE Fighter expansion & Gozanti)

Shame they didn't include a Z-95 with the Hound's Tooth, then we'd have 3 of those as well.

I would hope they do 2 different ships. The X/E-Wings seem most logical, though X/Y-Wings would make for a cool "Death Star Veterans" set with a Trench Run scenario.

That being said, if they gave us 2 cool alternate paint jobs on 2 new X-wings, I wouldn't be all that upset Maybe Coran in his green X-wing and some sort of Rogue Squadron markings (with a related title/fix).

monkeykins wrote:
... I already don't need or want a 6th ((X-Wing)), and if it is packaged with a ship I already haven't felt is worth $8 to me, I probably won't be getting it.


Though you may be able to re-sell the model - odds are you can find someone in your group that wants it (should you want to).
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Rogue Knight
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Cynis Kaden wrote:
This is possible but there is another obstacle...

If you added any title or buff and named it "T-65 x-wing" only then neither of the x-wings could use it. All the old T-65's in the ship name bar are only called "x-wing" the t-70's are "T-70 X-Wing".

Per page 20 of the FA starter rules reference under the upgrade cards section, the "entirety" of the ship name must be present on the ship in question to apply one of these types of upgrades. Since neither Ship contains the "T-65" portion in your suggestion this would not work to solve your issue.

They could do this but it would require some very specific Faq to alter the ship names or something.

Sithborg earlier suggested the following...

"Cannot be equipped if you have the Boost action in your action bar"

My only issue here is what if I want to use the new buff on Wedge Antilles? I like putting engine upgrade on him sometimes. So not perfect but possible I suppose.

Richard Dickson suggested...

"Alliance X-Wing Only"
"Both X-Wings are Rebel, but T-70s are Resistance, not Alliance."

This wouldn't work either because of the upgrade rules on page 20 of the Fa rules reference this would mean a ship would either need to have the word alliance in its name or they would have to faq it again. Something like this might work in a different way, I like what you tried to do here, in fact on second thought since they defined the card differences between Alliance and Resistance in the new rules you might be able to do it like this.

"Alliance only.
X-Wing only."

This way it references faction separately from ship name sort of like when it says Rebel only. But so far I like this suggestion the best Since if I am correct it wouldn't require a faq.



P.s. I do so want my T-65's to see more table time than the random Wedge or Biggs I decide to fly on league night. I misses them, so I would love to see FFg figure this out.


There were a number of T-65 submodels (T-65A, T-65B, etc)

Doing a title card called T-65 (Pick your model) that is for T-65 X-Wings only would solve the problem and is still elegant enough to fit in with the rest of the game. Personally, I'd love to see a pack with the T-65 and Y-Wing. Y-Wings need more pilots.
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Val Cassotta
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Cynis Kaden wrote:
Sithborg earlier suggested the following...

"Cannot be equipped if you have the Boost action in your action bar"

My only issue here is what if I want to use the new buff on Wedge Antilles? I like putting engine upgrade on him sometimes. So not perfect but possible I suppose.


The card could be phrased to indicate "..before any modifications are added". This way it would work on the X-Wing but not the T-70 X-Wing.

Or, you make the card a modification so you have to pick/choose which to use.

RogueKnight wrote:
...
Doing a title card called T-65 (Pick your model) that is for T-65 X-Wings only would solve the problem and is still elegant enough to fit in with the rest of the game. Personally, I'd love to see a pack with the T-65 and Y-Wing. Y-Wings need more pilots.


I think Cynis' point is that it is difficult/inelegant to exclude the T-70 from also being able to take the title, as FFG titled the T-65 series Pilot cards as "X-Wing". So, any title that can be taken by "X-Wing" only, could be take by a T-70 as well.
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chris sabiston
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Yes this is exactly my point. Not impossible but my point was in fact to illustrate the difficulty in providing what we want for the old T-65's with the current title upgrade system thats all. Not impossible just difficult.

Honestly the 12 year old boy in me truly hopes I get something like this card wise out of it. Regardless FFG has my money in it already since I collect all the rebel stuff...STOP MAKING ME WAIT FFG AND TAKE MY DARN MONEY ALREADY!
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Jeff Dunford
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There already is a fix for the T-65 X-wing. It's called Integrated Astromech. The big complaint about (generic) X-wings upon the B-wing's arrival was that for 1 point more, you got a ship that - on average - would survive 1 more 3-dice attack. That made the X-wing seem overcosted. Well, now you can put a 1-point Astromech on your X-wing along with the free Integrated Astromech modification and "Booyah!" you've given your X-wing the survivability of a B-wing for the same price. You don't have the Barrel Roll action or System slot, but you do have a much better dial (if you don't miss the 2-speed K-turn and red 1-speed turn too much).

I'd venture to guess that the classic "Biggs Walks the Dogs" gets strictly better by swapping out B-wings for X-wings with cheap astromechs + Integrated Astromech.

Meanwhile, all the old X-wings get a free hit point: Biggs/R2-F2, Luke/R2-D2 (or BB-8 or R7-T1), Wedge, Wes, ... Hobbie/R3-A2. The list goes on and on. Of course, you can't Integrate your Astromech and run Engine Upgrade at the same time... but you can use R7-T1 or BB-8 (as long as you don't want to spam them).
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Guilherme Casarotto
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For those who only get 1 copy of each product, it would be nice to have a Y-wing and an E-wing. Ditch the X-wing model on the expansion, but include cards that will help it.
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Les Marshall
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Wiyum wrote:
So I've been thinking today about what might be in the eventual Rebel Veterans pack. It seems like it will be focused on the E-Wing and the T-65 X-Wing. Both ships need love just like the Defender and Bomber do.

Unlike the Defender and Bomber, however, the E-Wing still sees plenty of use, including in the most recent Worlds Finals match. Sure, that's just the strength of Corran Horn, but it still presents the problem that isn't present with the Imperial Veterans pack: how do you buff the E-Wing without overpowering an already-plenty-useful Corran?

The T-65 (which I feel is the likeliest other ship, but less of a lock) presents the problem we're seeing with the recent discussions of the /x1 title on the Tie Advanced Prototype. Namely, how do you elegantly buff the X-Wing without making Poe even stronger than he already is?

After all, Nathan's finals list had both of these pilots. Surely we don't need to see those ships get a significant boost.

Anyhow, it has been rolling around my head today. Curious what folks think.


The T-65 is essentially a fighter/bomber rather than a space superiority fighter. It is slightly overcosted compared to the B-Wing which is more durable and flys almost as well given the barrel roll. It didn't get ANY love from the recent ordinance upgrades given it's single torpedo slot. Nor can the ships use missiles which contravenes the background.

They could easily offer up an array of titles for the T65 based on Rogue/Red Squadron or simply keyed to function. To wit:

They could reduce the ship cost by one (1) and strip it's torpedo slot for a slightly cheaper superiority model. This would allow 5 rookies to be fielded against 4 B-wings.

For an ordinance ship, they could add a torpedo or missile slot at which point the ship could take extra munitions to double it's torpedo/missile effectiveness.

Another T-65 title could focus on droids and reduce their cost by 1 or 2.

Offer up a few new droids to complement these titles and you've got a versatile and more competitive old school X-Wing.
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Ralph T
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Very few players have fewer than 4 X-Wings and there's no way to fly 5 in a list. Another X-Wing model is not what we need. Cards that make the X-Wing competitive would help. These could be through astromechs, mods or titles. I would expect the Rebel Veterans include the Y and E wing and some astromechs or other things that help X-Wings. Maybe it will be the Z-95 since the Y-Wing is so upgraded, but I would like to see it include more Y-Wing pilots.
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