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Subject: Questions relating to Arda Revised rss

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Hey everyone - this will be on the long side, so please bear with me. I've assembled an Arda hero-only deck using the Arda Revised rules in the files on this site. It's using all characters, play deck is around 360 cards, about 30ish minor items, and I've linked almost every MP item with a site [to make a "Quest Deck"]; repetition of sites is minimal. A couple friends are interested in playing, but first I'm playing a trial or two by myself, playing both "sides," to make sure I've got a good grasp of the rules and can "DM" their experience well. I have the 110-page Universal Rules & Errata document to reference, and am consulting that before posting here. That said, I'd like to make sure I understand certain concepts, particularly because some of them get a little funky in the transition to Arda Revised. Without further ado:

Movement – The Arda Revised rules are confusing about havens. “Havens are not regions, except for the purpose of counting as such when being moved into and out of.” If using region movement in a normal game, my understanding is that a haven functions only as a site, so that (for example) if I moved from Rivendell to Bree, my company’s path would be wilderness-wilderness and I still could have had the option of moving two further regions – right?

Relatedly, do you allow companies to split/combine during their organization phase anywhere on the map, or only at havens? (The Arda Revised rules say it can only happen at havens, but I seem to recall reading that’s only true if you’re using starter movement.) I believe the only other time things can change is, if two companies meet at a site they are automatically/immediately combined following the movement/hazard phase, right?

Overall I want to stick to only region movement, but I think I’ll offer that a company can use starter movement back to the last haven they visited if it’s the closest haven on the existing site card. (In other words, they can have a movement “bonus” because they already know the terrain and have cleared away some hazards.) I’m also debating whether to allow starter movement between Grey Havens-Edhellond and Lorien-Edhellond. Thoughts?

Minor items – For Arda, can minor hoard items be played as the bonus minor item when the site becomes tapped by resource play, even if the site isn’t a hoard? Can a unique minor item (i.e. Sting) be a starting item?

Hoards – The Arda Revised rules allow sites to untap/reset once a company departs (provided that same company can’t use the site again as long as it carries a resource from it). That said, how should I handle hoards? Unlike LOTRO I’d rather avoid undead dragons in my game... If one player’s company defeats a dragon, can another player’s company then travel there to play something without facing an auto-attack? I only have two dragon sites with more than one MP “quest” attached so this isn’t likely to occur often; I’m inclined to allow it.

Influencing – Just to make sure I’m understanding the circumstances under which an opponent can influence resources away from you, given that there is a shared playdeck / no need or ability to draw a duplicate. Characters/allies must be at the same site, to influence an item you have to be at the same site as its controlling character (essentially, convincing them to give it to you), and to influence a faction you must travel to the site where that faction was played?

Timing of influencing attempts - during what phases can you attempt to influence? Arda Revised functions that when you successfully influence something from an opponent, you immediately gain control of it. If an influence attempt can only be made during the site phase, there's nothing to stop two companies from camping out, stealing an item back and forth (though that would give a huge advantage to any other player the longer they're at it). I'm wondering if it would be possible for the original player to try to grab it back and run: Player 2 moves to Player 1's site and successfully persuades Aragon to give up Narsil (fat chance, but stay with me). On Aragorn's next turn, prior to the movement/hazard phase (both companies still being at the site), Aragon gets Beretar to agree that maaaaybe the free peoples really are better off with this heirloom carried by their heir of Isildur, and runs off with it before Beretar can change his mind. There's nothing to stop Beretar from chasing after Aragorn on HIS movement phase, but at least this way they're not sitting around the campfire arguing forever?

On a related front, I imagine that successfully influencing a faction away from an opponent would require tapping the faction's site, right? (Otherwise, depending on the timing issue above, even if I managed to leave all my opponent's characters tapped via hazards, on their next turn they could influence the faction and then run to another site to play more resources?)

Faction failure – When using a shared “quest” deck, my understanding is that if a faction has been brought into play successfully by another player, you can simply travel to that site and attempt to get it for yourself via influence attempt. So my question is, if one player fails, can other players still make the attempt if they travel to the site (kind of reciprocal to making an influence attempt on a faction that WAS played) or does the faction go to the bottom of the deck? In a normal game, if you fail to play a faction, it’s discarded. My inclination is that it goes to the bottom / in roleplay terms the faction got upset and doesn’t want anything to do with outsiders for a while.

Speaking of failures and discards, with a shared deck do you prefer having each player maintain their own discard pile or having one shared discard pile? I’ve minimized the number of deck-searching and discard-playing cards in my desk, so my inclination is to have it be one shared pile. Though that raises another question…

With more than 2 players, how do you read “opponent” cards outside of strict movement/hazard phase stuff. In other words, does Pallando make all other players discard face up, or just the one who plays hazards on him, or can you choose the opponent? On a related front, if you have more than 2 players, does a long event last for one full rotation, or just until the next player’s equivalent long event or hazard phase?

Storing/transferring items doesn’t require a character to tap, right, just perform a corruption check? And the advantages to storing are that you don't get corruption points and your opponent can't attempt to influence the item away?

And lastly (for now)… Arda Revised rules allow any Wizard to tap to test a ring at Rivendell, and any sage to tap to use a Palantir. (Palantir of Annuminas is not included in my play deck FYI.) I'm inclined to keep these rules, particularly so there aren't many ring test cards taking up space in the play deck. Votes for/against?


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Anonymous Bosch
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And here's an unlikely (but interesting) scenario that just happened: I moved Alatar to Grey Havens and successfully played a Wizard's Ring on him. Because Wizard's Ring is an item worth MP, I assume that taps the site. Meanwhile, I have a separate company (still on Alatar's side) that in theory could travel via Eagle-Mounts to join him. Elves of Lindon is available to be played.

The Arda Revised rules state "If the resource card is successfully played, the site is considered to be tapped for that company and that company alone as long as they carry a card that was played at that site. No further MP cards may be played by the company there until they come back later in the game without bearing a card that was played there."

Does this mean that if I used Eagle-Mounts to get the second company to Grey Havens, they would immediately merge with Alatar and inherit the tapped site? If they wait to travel until the following turn, and Alatar heads somewhere else first (keeping them companies separate), is the second company then able to travel to Grey Havens and play Elves of Lindon?
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Anonymous Bosch
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Another topic I realized I should bring up. I haven't included Call of Home or Call of the Sea yet in the playdeck because I'm not sure how this mechanism works in Arda Revised. Characters typically don't take up any hand space because they come from their own shared deck/offering - so therefore this penalizes the player twice, by not only taking a character off the board but also forcing an extra card "slot" to be used (at least, it does if the player has fewer than 8 cards at the end of the movement/hazard phase). I'm wondering whether the player should have the option to discard the character immediately - or if I should just have a rule that any character so affected is discarded rather than returned to hand.
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Anonymous Bosch
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Nobody? cry

I'm also wondering at what point in a player's turn the minor/character/MP "offerings" should be refreshed (meaning, discard the oldest one and reveal a new one). And whether, when a player uses one of the "offering" cards, a new one should be revealed immediately or if it should be instead revealed in tandem with the "refresh."
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wisdomgiver wrote:
1) Movement – The Arda Revised rules are confusing about havens. “Havens are not regions, except for the purpose of counting as such when being moved into and out of.” If using region movement in a normal game, my understanding is that a haven functions only as a site, so that (for example) if I moved from Rivendell to Bree, my company’s path would be wilderness-wilderness and I still could have had the option of moving two further regions – right?

2) Relatedly, do you allow companies to split/combine during their organization phase anywhere on the map, or only at havens? (The Arda Revised rules say it can only happen at havens, but I seem to recall reading that’s only true if you’re using starter movement.) I believe the only other time things can change is, if two companies meet at a site they are automatically/immediately combined following the movement/hazard phase, right?

3) Overall I want to stick to only region movement, but I think I’ll offer that a company can use starter movement back to the last haven they visited if it’s the closest haven on the existing site card. (In other words, they can have a movement “bonus” because they already know the terrain and have cleared away some hazards.) I’m also debating whether to allow starter movement between Grey Havens-Edhellond and Lorien-Edhellond. Thoughts?

4) Minor items – For Arda, can minor hoard items be played as the bonus minor item when the site becomes tapped by resource play, even if the site isn’t a hoard? Can a unique minor item (i.e. Sting) be a starting item?

5) Hoards – The Arda Revised rules allow sites to untap/reset once a company departs (provided that same company can’t use the site again as long as it carries a resource from it). That said, how should I handle hoards? Unlike LOTRO I’d rather avoid undead dragons in my game... If one player’s company defeats a dragon, can another player’s company then travel there to play something without facing an auto-attack? I only have two dragon sites with more than one MP “quest” attached so this isn’t likely to occur often; I’m inclined to allow it.

6) Influencing – Just to make sure I’m understanding the circumstances under which an opponent can influence resources away from you, given that there is a shared playdeck / no need or ability to draw a duplicate. Characters/allies must be at the same site, to influence an item you have to be at the same site as its controlling character (essentially, convincing them to give it to you), and to influence a faction you must travel to the site where that faction was played?

7) Timing of influencing attempts - during what phases can you attempt to influence? Arda Revised functions that when you successfully influence something from an opponent, you immediately gain control of it. If an influence attempt can only be made during the site phase, there's nothing to stop two companies from camping out, stealing an item back and forth (though that would give a huge advantage to any other player the longer they're at it). I'm wondering if it would be possible for the original player to try to grab it back and run: Player 2 moves to Player 1's site and successfully persuades Aragon to give up Narsil (fat chance, but stay with me). On Aragorn's next turn, prior to the movement/hazard phase (both companies still being at the site), Aragon gets Beretar to agree that maaaaybe the free peoples really are better off with this heirloom carried by their heir of Isildur, and runs off with it before Beretar can change his mind. There's nothing to stop Beretar from chasing after Aragorn on HIS movement phase, but at least this way they're not sitting around the campfire arguing forever?

8) On a related front, I imagine that successfully influencing a faction away from an opponent would require tapping the faction's site, right? (Otherwise, depending on the timing issue above, even if I managed to leave all my opponent's characters tapped via hazards, on their next turn they could influence the faction and then run to another site to play more resources?)

9) Faction failure – When using a shared “quest” deck, my understanding is that if a faction has been brought into play successfully by another player, you can simply travel to that site and attempt to get it for yourself via influence attempt. So my question is, if one player fails, can other players still make the attempt if they travel to the site (kind of reciprocal to making an influence attempt on a faction that WAS played) or does the faction go to the bottom of the deck? In a normal game, if you fail to play a faction, it’s discarded. My inclination is that it goes to the bottom / in roleplay terms the faction got upset and doesn’t want anything to do with outsiders for a while.

10) Speaking of failures and discards, with a shared deck do you prefer having each player maintain their own discard pile or having one shared discard pile? I’ve minimized the number of deck-searching and discard-playing cards in my desk, so my inclination is to have it be one shared pile. Though that raises another question…

11) With more than 2 players, how do you read “opponent” cards outside of strict movement/hazard phase stuff. In other words, does Pallando make all other players discard face up, or just the one who plays hazards on him, or can you choose the opponent? On a related front, if you have more than 2 players, does a long event last for one full rotation, or just until the next player’s equivalent long event or hazard phase?

12) Storing/transferring items doesn’t require a character to tap, right, just perform a corruption check? And the advantages to storing are that you don't get corruption points and your opponent can't attempt to influence the item away?

13) And lastly (for now)… Arda Revised rules allow any Wizard to tap to test a ring at Rivendell, and any sage to tap to use a Palantir. (Palantir of Annuminas is not included in my play deck FYI.) I'm inclined to keep these rules, particularly so there aren't many ring test cards taking up space in the play deck. Votes for/against?


So many questions! But I'll give it a go

1) I don't think I understand the Arda Revised text here. Personally I like and only use region movement as in the regular game.

2) I don't like the 'only at havens' rule. Splitting is in any organization phase as far as I'm concerned, joining is automatic at the end of the Movement/Hazard phase if at same site.

3) If you ask me I'd do away with Starter Movement altogether.

4) This is up to you. I don't remember the official rule for the regular game. I'd allow it in Arda, since it's a casual format and this will help get more varied cards out in play.

5) I'd allow it as well.

6) Sounds right.

7) There's nothing to stop a chase like that, no. But it will take time and there's no guarantee that the attempt will work. So probably players will not invest in this type of play. Just too much of a hassle.

8) Hm, either way (tap site or not) they would not be able to run off to play more resources in the same turn, since the influence attempt has to be made in the Site phase.

9) You could house rule it that the faction is shuffled back into the play deck. Makes sense.

10) Yeah, I prefer one shared discard pile as well.

11) For these kind of questions the 'sphere of influence' is a good help. This sphere extends to the players sitting left and right of you. Long events, permanent events and other 'global' game effects only apply within this sphere of influence. A long event played by you stays active until the start of your next turn (to be precise, until Long Event phase). The Pallando/discard dilemma is something you'll have to houserule however you see fit. If you decide to follow sphere of influence, you'd have to create two discard piles (one open, one closed).

12) Correct.

13) I vote for.
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wisdomgiver wrote:
14) And here's an unlikely (but interesting) scenario that just happened: I moved Alatar to Grey Havens and successfully played a Wizard's Ring on him. Because Wizard's Ring is an item worth MP, I assume that taps the site. Meanwhile, I have a separate company (still on Alatar's side) that in theory could travel via Eagle-Mounts to join him. Elves of Lindon is available to be played.

The Arda Revised rules state "If the resource card is successfully played, the site is considered to be tapped for that company and that company alone as long as they carry a card that was played at that site. No further MP cards may be played by the company there until they come back later in the game without bearing a card that was played there."

Does this mean that if I used Eagle-Mounts to get the second company to Grey Havens, they would immediately merge with Alatar and inherit the tapped site? If they wait to travel until the following turn, and Alatar heads somewhere else first (keeping them companies separate), is the second company then able to travel to Grey Havens and play Elves of Lindon?


14) I would say you assume correct.
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wisdomgiver wrote:
15) Another topic I realized I should bring up. I haven't included Call of Home or Call of the Sea yet in the playdeck because I'm not sure how this mechanism works in Arda Revised. Characters typically don't take up any hand space because they come from their own shared deck/offering - so therefore this penalizes the player twice, by not only taking a character off the board but also forcing an extra card "slot" to be used (at least, it does if the player has fewer than 8 cards at the end of the movement/hazard phase). I'm wondering whether the player should have the option to discard the character immediately - or if I should just have a rule that any character so affected is discarded rather than returned to hand.


15) I'd let them discard that character immediately to keep the game moving at a pleasurable rate.
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wisdomgiver wrote:
16) I'm also wondering at what point in a player's turn the minor/character/MP "offerings" should be refreshed (meaning, discard the oldest one and reveal a new one). And whether, when a player uses one of the "offering" cards, a new one should be revealed immediately or if it should be instead revealed in tandem with the "refresh."


16) Refresh everything at End of turn phase. No immediate reveals in between.
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Thank you Wiet! I realize some of these things are at my discretion since Arda is kind of the ultimate "house rules" format - but wanted at least another set of eyes to make sure I'm not misunderstanding or modifying things in a way that could break the game or significantly unbalance it.
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13) for
12) ok.
10) I prefer separate individual discard piles, because, after a while you could recycle those cards into your hand. It's like a Dominion style kind of grabbing cards for later use.
9) shuffle it back to play deck.

14) I think you should be allowed to use Eagle-Mounts to get the second company to Grey Havens, then have them play Elves of Lindon, then merge with Alatar. This is such a rare case, after all, two companies (of the same Avatar) arriving at one site should each be able to play a card.
15) agree with Wiet.
16) I think it should be revealed immediately, so that the offering list is always filled.
 
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TsarRiri wrote:
two companies (of the same Avatar) arriving at one site should each be able to play a card.

I don't think this is right. In regular meccg, the two companies would merge and only one resource that taps the site can be played.
 
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@ Wiet,
you're right, if it was allowed, then 3 comp. could merge but just before, each could play a card at the same time. Too complicated. Merging should be first. Even if the second company arrives later in the turn, the site would be already tapped.
 
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TsarRiri wrote:
@ Wiet,
you're right, if it was allowed, then 3 comp. could merge but just before, each could play a card at the same time.

This is not possible. Companies must join at the end of the Movement/Hazard phase, and resources that tap the site are played in the Site phase (after entering the site).
 
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