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D-Day at Tarawa» Forums » Rules

Subject: First play rules questions: Stacking/tanks/VPs rss

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JOE LIBRANDI
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*Turn 6 reinforcements are placed in turn 5. These units can't help but be placed overstacked. What happens to these overstacked units at the end of the turn 5 US Action Phase when the overstacking penalty kicks in?

*11.11 How can US and Japanese units remain stacked in the same hex?

*(P) Tank Advance and Fire: is the tank's field of fire following advance the color of the tank's starting or ending position?

*14.2: Must positions actually be occupied by US units or can they be controlled to count for VPs?

*This scenario ends on turn 10. Why are garrisons mentioned for position occupation since they don't exist before turn 11?
 
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Martin Åkerlund
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joe6778 wrote:
*Turn 6 reinforcements are placed in turn 5. These units can't help but be placed overstacked. What happens to these overstacked units at the end of the turn 5 US Action Phase when the overstacking penalty kicks in?

They won't be overstacked. Some units will be placed in the red "D" approach hexes marked "turn 5"

joe6778 wrote:

*11.11 How can US and Japanese units remain stacked in the same hex?

They can't remain stacked. This rule refers to U.S. units stacked with enemy units before or during close combat, which is when they lose their ability to control hexes.

joe6778 wrote:

*(P) Tank Advance and Fire: is the tank's field of fire following advance the color of the tank's starting or ending position?

The starting position - until the end of its action.

joe6778 wrote:

*14.2: Must positions actually be occupied by US units or can they be controlled to count for VPs?

They must be occupied (see the first bullet).
However, note that the second bullet has been changed so only positions projecting intensive FOF into the hex need to be occupied.

joe6778 wrote:

*This scenario ends on turn 10. Why are garrisons mentioned for position occupation since they don't exist before turn 11?

It's true that garrisons aren't used in the The First Waves scenario. However, section 14.2 is refered to in the longer scenarios. Hence the garrison part.



 
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Chris in Kansai
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Brastias wrote:


joe6778 wrote:

*(P) Tank Advance and Fire: is the tank's field of fire following advance the color of the tank's starting or ending position?

The starting position - until the end of its action.


I must be misunderstanding the Tank P action - a Japanese Tank Advance can only occur if there are no US units in its field of fire. If the tank's FoF after the advance is still that of its starting position, it can never fire because there were no US units in its FoF initially, which allowed it to advance.

I've been playing this as advancing the tank to a new position hex then firing if there are any US units in the FoF (+1 for tank) of the new hex.
 
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Martin Åkerlund
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One of us is misunderstanding the other...

Joe asked about which colour to use when deciding if the tank fires after advancing and not which position's FOF to use (if I understood HIM correctly). The colour should be the one that activated the tank in the first place so the tank will always fire if a unit is in its new FOF.

If you're saying a tank with a P action can't advance if a U.S. unit is in its (initial) FOF, I believe you're wrong.

 
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Chris in Kansai
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Brastias wrote:

One of us is misunderstanding the other...

Joe asked about which colour to use when deciding if the tank fires after advancing and not which position's FOF to use (if I understood HIM correctly). The colour should be the one that activated the tank in the first place so the tank will always fire if a unit is in its new FOF.

If you're saying a tank with a P action can't advance if a U.S. unit is in its (initial) FOF, I believe you're wrong.



Ah, ok - I think that's what I meant from the map but I wasn't considering the card - the card fire trigger doesn't change because the tank has advanced onto a different coloured position, but the tank will fire using the new position's FoF.

Thus, if the fire card shows a yellow square + P and a tank is on a yellow position, it will advance to another position of any colour and fire on any US units within the new position's field of fire irrespective of colour ... right?

Brastias wrote:

If you're saying a tank with a P action can't advance if a U.S. unit is in its (initial) FOF, I believe you're wrong.


This has got me confused though. Isn't an advance dependent on there being no US units in the tank's initial FoF?

Thanks Martin - I know you know these games in depth so I appreciate the insight.
 
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Martin Åkerlund
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Chris,

I do know these games well, but I would obviously never claim to be any kind of authority on the rules.

That said, look at the last part of the description of the P action (i.e. the bullet text): "if no move is possible and US units are in FOF, fire."

I've interpreted that as: "advance regardless of the presence of US units in the initial FOF. If no position fulfills the advance requirements (is within range, closer to US unit, in communication and not occupied by a US unit) the tank will remain and fire at the US unit in its FOF."

Since other Japanese actions have units moving by or even through US units, that interpretation made sense to me.

Edit. Re-reading that P action rule a couple of times, I can see it interpreted the way you do as well. Most likely you're right. Either way, the wording could have been better.

With some luck, mr Butterfield will check the forum eventually and clear up the questions the community hasn't been able to answer fully.

 
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JOE LIBRANDI
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Brastias wrote:

joe6778 wrote:
*Turn 6 reinforcements are placed in turn 5. These units can't help but be placed overstacked. What happens to these overstacked units at the end of the turn 5 US Action Phase when the overstacking penalty kicks in?

They won't be overstacked. Some units will be placed in the red "D" approach hexes marked "turn 5"

joe6778 wrote:

*11.11 How can US and Japanese units remain stacked in the same hex?

They can't remain stacked. This rule refers to U.S. units stacked with enemy units before or during close combat, which is when they lose their ability to control hexes.

joe6778 wrote:

*(P) Tank Advance and Fire: is the tank's field of fire following advance the color of the tank's starting or ending position?

The starting position - until the end of its action.

joe6778 wrote:

*14.2: Must positions actually be occupied by US units or can they be controlled to count for VPs?

They must be occupied (see the first bullet).
However, note that the second bullet has been changed so only positions projecting intensive FOF into the hex need to be occupied.

joe6778 wrote:

*This scenario ends on turn 10. Why are garrisons mentioned for position occupation since they don't exist before turn 11?

It's true that garrisons aren't used in the The First Waves scenario. However, section 14.2 is refered to in the longer scenarios. Hence the garrison part.





*Maybe I'm missing something, but I can only see one D approach hex. There are other turn 5 units which will remain overstacked in the approach areas.

*11.11: Obviously both US and Japanese units occupy the same hex during CC, but that only lasts until CC is concluded. Why the need to include this rule? It serves no purpose.

*14.2: So in order to win this scenario, at least 10 US units must occupy 10 positions and others much occupy the positions that have intensive Fields of Fire on those positions and they must all be in communication? That seems like a tough nut to crack.
 
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Chris in Kansai
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joe6778 wrote:
*Turn 6 reinforcements are placed in turn 5. These units can't help but be placed overstacked.


Stacking limit is 2 units per hex. The number of steps per hex doesn't matter for stacking. There are 8 beach approach hexes available for the turn 6 units - R2A,B,C,D and R3A,B,C,D.

14 units will enter play on turn 6:

1 tank, 4 infantry and 2 engineers on beach R2 and the same for R3, so you can keep within the stacking limit of no more than 2 units per hex.

LVTs are not counted as units, and are placed at the beginning of the amphibious phase and removed at the end of it so they'll never be on the board when stacking limits are checked. (Just wondering if this is the problem)

joe6778 wrote:

*11.11: Obviously both US and Japanese units occupy the same hex during CC, but that only lasts until CC is concluded. Why the need to include this rule? It serves no purpose.


I'm guessing this is relevant in the case where the Close Combat event Reinforce is drawn by the Japanese side. Japanese units need to be in communication to receive a depth marker so without this rule they wouldn't be (with some exceptions) .. ?
 
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Martin Åkerlund
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Chrysm wrote:

joe6778 wrote:

*11.11: Obviously both US and Japanese units occupy the same hex during CC, but that only lasts until CC is concluded. Why the need to include this rule? It serves no purpose.


I'm guessing this is relevant in the case where the Close Combat event Reinforce is drawn by the Japanese side. Japanese units need to be in communication to receive a depth marker so without this rule they wouldn't be (with some exceptions) .. ?

Correct. This is important when deciding reinforcements in close combat, but also when deciding the fate of attacked Japanese elite units (8.33). Remember, all movement and regular attacks happen before close combat is resolved.



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JOE LIBRANDI
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Thanks to both of you for your help.
 
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John Butterfield
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Japanese Tank P Action

First, check to see if the unit can advance, within the restrictions of the default advance action (13.2, third paragraph, second bullet). Those restrictions prevent a unit with units in its field of fire from advancing.

If the unit is not able to advance, fire.

If the unit is able to advance, and there are then units in its field of fire after the advance, fire.
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Martin Åkerlund
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Thank you, sir, for clearing that up!

Now if you like to spread some more of that wisdom and have a look at the unanswered questions at the Peleliu forum as well...


 
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JOE LIBRANDI
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JohnButterfield wrote:
Japanese Tank P Action

First, check to see if the unit can advance, within the restrictions of the default advance action (13.2, third paragraph, second bullet). Those restrictions prevent a unit with units in its field of fire from advancing.

If the unit is not able to advance, fire.

If the unit is able to advance, and there are then units in its field of fire after the advance, fire.


The confusion arises from the final position of the tank in regard to it's field of fire. Is it's FOF considered from it's original position prior to it's advance, or from it's final position?

It starts in a blue position and advances to a red position. There are units in the red FOF, but the card shows blue. Does the tank fire?
 
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John Brown
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I believe, if the tank advances, the tank fires based on the extended FOF for the new position. The blue on the card is the original impetus for the tank to do the action, but the action itself is the impetus to fire even though it's now on a new position color. And since it is now firing from a new position, it's gotta use the color of that position to determine its FOF.

For a moment, you think your troops are safe because you drew a blue, but then you realize that the tank advances to red and fires on all those guys in its new FOF.

 
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JOE LIBRANDI
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Thanks for clearing that up for me.
 
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