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Subject: Hut Action: Food Storage rss

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Nick Case
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In the basic game, players bid for cutting areas and place their tokens in the selected areas. Hence when the hut action is used for food storage, its clear to see which areas are free (empty).

However with the 'Tactical Variant' the cutting areas are selected once the foreman reaches the clearing so there is no cutting area selection at the start of the round and no markers are placed on the board. As a result, if a player uses the hut action,'food storage', what constitutes a free (empty) area?
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Alexander Huemer
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Big Bad Lex wrote:
In the basic game, players bid for cutting areas and place their tokens in the selected areas. Hence when the hut action is used for food storage, its clear to see which areas are free (empty).

However with the 'Tactical Variant' the cutting areas are selected once the foreman reaches the clearing so there is no cutting area selection at the start of the round and no markers are placed on the board. As a result, if a player uses the hut action,'food storage', what constitutes a free (empty) area?


Hello Nick,

I think there is a missunderstanding with the "tactical-variant" of choosing the cutting area.

The cutting areas are not immediately chosen when the foreman reaches the forest clearing. Choosing the area takes place in the same step as in the basic game but you start choosing from the reverse starting-player-order (1st choosing = 4th player, 2nd choosing = 3rd player ...and so on). Every player has to choose a free area and every player has to put his token immediately into the chosen area. (every player only needs one token with any number in this variant)

This means that the player who arrived the clearing first (in the round before) is also the first who can choose a cutting area but is the last in the starting-player-order.

This also ensures that you exactly know at the beginning of the round how many wood and which kind of wood you can get at this round.

And don´t forget to discover the "placement cards" for the next round. So the players know which kind and which amount of wood will be available in the next round. So they can decide if it´s worth to be the first player at the clearing (to be the first player to choose the area)...

To your question : There are tokens/markers in the areas and if you use the hut action "food storage" you have to choose a free area, like in the basic game.

oh, it was not easy for me to explain this issue in English but I hope I could do it in an understandable way.
If you have still questions about this issue please ask again.

Kind regards and "Gut Holz"

Alex


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Nick Case
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Thanks for the reply Alex (your English is great), however I'm still not clear on how this works.

Yes I appreciate the rule about cutting areas being selected in 'arrival at clearing order' and player order being the reverse of this, but the next steps seem unclear (or perhaps unnecessary). Perhaps I can illustrate this best with the steps as I see them (for the tactical variant);

Round 1 (Spring):
Players place a token each in the clearings with 3 pieces of wood.
Foremen move around path to the clearing. Arrival order makes no difference for cutting area selection (because they are already chosen) but does effect playing order.
Players take actions and cut trees from their selected areas.
If counters remain, there is no food in any cutting areas at this time.

Round 2 (Summer):
Placement Cards are put out to show what trees will be added to each cutting area. Is wood and food added now?
Foremen move around path to clearing.
In arrival order players pick a cutting area and take the food from this area. Wood from this area is then used in the following cutting action. There is no need to place tokens because these cutting areas are used immediately in the next cutting action and food is picked up straight away.

Round 3 (Autumn):
Repeat Round 2 Summer.

Have I got this right?

If I have, then the issue is when the trees and food are added from the placement cards. Is it at the start of the round when the cards are declared or once everyone has reached the clearing?

If it is at the start then the hut bonus 'food storage' can pick from all 6 cutting areas. If it is when foremen reach the clearing then there will only ever be two spaces that potentially have food because the other 4 will have been visited the turn before.

However there is a big difference between the two. I hope I have explained this in a clearer manner this time.
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Alexander Huemer
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Big Bad Lex wrote:

Round 1 (Spring):
Players place a token each in the clearings with 3 pieces of wood.
Foremen move around path to the clearing. Arrival order makes no difference for cutting area selection (because they are already chosen) but does effect playing order.
Players take actions and cut trees from their selected areas.
If counters remain, there is no food in any cutting areas at this time.

Round 2 (Summer):
Placement Cards are put out to show what trees will be added to each cutting area. Is wood and food added now?
Foremen move around path to clearing.
In arrival order players pick a cutting area and take the food from this area. Wood from this area is then used in the following cutting action. There is no need to place tokens because these cutting areas are used immediately in the next cutting action and food is picked up straight away.

Round 3 (Autumn):
Repeat Round 2 Summer.

Have I got this right?


Hello Nick,
I think I explained in a confusing way (it is not that complicated as it sounds ). There is still a missunderstanding. I´ll try it in the way of your explanation:

For example: 3 Player game:

Round 1 (Spring):
Players place a token each in the areas with 3 pieces of wood.

Then 2 placement cards (3 player game) are revealed (this is the wood and food which will be available in the 2nd round (summer). But the wood and food is not added to the areas at that moment!.
At this moment it is just an information for the players: kind of wood / amount of wood/ and information about the areas for wood and food.
--> Because of this information the players can decide if they want to choose the cutting area first in the 2nd round. If they want, they have to be the first player at the clearing.

Foremen move around path to the clearing. Arrival order makes no difference for cutting area (because they are already chosen) but does effect playing order and therefor does effect the area selection in the next season (round).
Players take actions and cut trees from their selected areas.

Round 2 (Summer):
Everything gets prepared for the second round (summer)like in the basic game. Also the new starting-player-order... Players also take back their tokens from the cutting areas... and so on

Now the wood and food from the already revealed cards (the cards that have been revealed in spring) gets into the areas.

After that the players choose their cutting areas!
--> Beginning with player 3 on the starting-player-order (this was the first at the clearing). The player chooses an area and puts his token into this area. the player also gets all the food in the chosen area. then player two choses an area, puts his token and takes all the food, and finally player one....

So everyone has chosen an area, has taken the food from this area and has his token in this area. Now every player knows the amount of wood and the kind of wood which he can cut in this round (summer).

Then 2 new placement cards are revealed (this is the wood and food which will be available in the 3rd round (Autumn). But the wood and food is not added to the areas at that moment!
This is the new information for the player which wood /food will come into the areas in Autumn..

Foremen move around path to clearing.
Arrival order makes no difference for the cutting area (because they are already chosen) but does effect playing order and therefor does effect the area selection for the next season/round (Autumn).
Players take actions and cut trees from their selected areas.

Round 3 (Autumn):

Repeat Round 2 (like summer)
...

Back to your question :
Before beginning to move around the supply-path every player knows exactly in which area he can cut wood in this round (chosen by himself and marked with his token).
With the hut action "food storage" you can only take food from an not chosen area. This means from an area without a player token. ---> In chosen areas is anyway no food left, because every player gets always all the food from the chosen area in this variant.

Nick, this sounds again very confusing but it is really not that difficult during the play, when you know how it works.

I hope I could explain this issue. But if there is something still unclear, please contact me again.
This is really no problem!

Kind regards

Alex
 
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Nick Case
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Thanks for your patience Alex. I think I now appreciate the order in which things are supposed to run. My confusion stems (I think) from the fact that you know what new wood will be available to a clearing BEFORE the current wood has been cleared and the English rules refer to the 'next round' whereas it would perhaps be clearer if they said 'next season'. The order in which the foremen arrive in the clearing determines which areas they will work in THE FOLLOWING SEASON. They are effectively racing to stake an area claim for three months time, not sprinting straight into the woods to cut these trees down now. Obviously the way we played made the first circuit of the path irrelevant with regard to area selection, but there again in the proper rules, the final circuit is now irrelevant. Once we knew how the woodworking phases worked, we completed them section by section simultaneously. There seems no reason not to do this as it saves a lot of time.

Your official ruling still makes the foreman aspect a race, but if you miss a good future cutting area by arriving late, then you can make adjustment the following season by visiting the spaces that will best suit the wood YOU KNOW will be available. The 'variant' we incorrectly played is a bit more brutal insofar that you must get the cutters, bearers and tools required for the wood that you hope to get BEFORE you get to the clearing and choose the wood. The punishment is much greater if you get this wrong.

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Alexander Huemer
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Big Bad Lex wrote:
The 'variant' we incorrectly played is a bit more brutal insofar that you must get the cutters, bearers and tools required for the wood that you hope to get BEFORE you get to the clearing and choose the wood. The punishment is much greater if you get this wrong.


Hello Nick,
you´re welcome. During testing the game I´ve also been trying "your" variant, but this is really tough because you´ll never know exactly which area you´ll get. This makes planning the round very difficult. This was sometimes frustrating, so I decided that it´s better to know which area you´ll get before starting the round

I wish you an exciting time with Lignum

Kind regards
Alex

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David Hewitt
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Huh - we just tried the game yesterday, and our best understanding of how to play the tactical game was the way Nick explained it. We'll have to try it the other way, but it will certainly eliminate some risky decisions.
 
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Ken Bush
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1alexanderhuemer2 wrote:


For example: 3 Player game:

Round 1 (Spring):
Players place a token each in the areas with 3 pieces of wood.

Then 2 placement cards (3 player game) are revealed (this is the wood and food which will be available in the 2nd round (summer). But the wood and food is not added to the areas at that moment!.
At this moment it is just an information for the players: kind of wood / amount of wood/ and information about the areas for wood and food.
--> Because of this information the players can decide if they want to choose the cutting area first in the 2nd round. If they want, they have to be the first player at the clearing.

Foremen move around path to the clearing. Arrival order makes no difference for cutting area (because they are already chosen) but does effect playing order and therefor does effect the area selection in the next season (round).
Players take actions and cut trees from their selected areas.

Round 2 (Summer):
Everything gets prepared for the second round (summer)like in the basic game. Also the new starting-player-order... Players also take back their tokens from the cutting areas... and so on

Now the wood and food from the already revealed cards (the cards that have been revealed in spring) gets into the areas.

After that the players choose their cutting areas!
--> Beginning with player 3 on the starting-player-order (this was the first at the clearing). The player chooses an area and puts his token into this area. the player also gets all the food in the chosen area. then player two choses an area, puts his token and takes all the food, and finally player one....

So everyone has chosen an area, has taken the food from this area and has his token in this area. Now every player knows the amount of wood and the kind of wood which he can cut in this round (summer).

Then 2 new placement cards are revealed (this is the wood and food which will be available in the 3rd round (Autumn). But the wood and food is not added to the areas at that moment!
This is the new information for the player which wood /food will come into the areas in Autumn..

Foremen move around path to clearing.
Arrival order makes no difference for the cutting area (because they are already chosen) but does effect playing order and therefor does effect the area selection for the next season/round (Autumn).
Players take actions and cut trees from their selected areas.

Round 3 (Autumn):

Repeat Round 2 (like summer)
...

This is definitely NOT what the rules state. So to summarize what was intended:
*Reveal the cards for the NEXT SEASON in Step 2 of Spring/Summer/Fall year 1 and Spring/Summer of year 2.
*Then in either step 3 for the basic rules or after step 4 for the tactical variant, populate the cutting areas with the wood and food from the previous season exposed cards. Doesn't this mean you have 2 years worth of cutting area cards exposed at once? Wouldn't it be better to have step 2 (mark wood to be cut) moved to after step 4 so that there is never 2 sets of cards exposed?
 
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Ken Bush
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So is this how it should be:
Basic Variant:
1. Fill Supply path
2. Place wood & Food
. . 2a. Use Cards revealed in previous season
. . 2b. Add 1 firewood to any plot w/o wood
. . 2c. Reveal cutting area cards for next season
3. Players select Cutting areas by placing tokens
. . 3a. take food
4. Travel path

Tactical Variant:
1. Fill supply path
2. Travel on path
3. Place wood & Food
. . 3a. Use cards revealed in previous season
. . 3b. Add 1 firewood to any plot w/o wood
. . 3c. Reveal cutting area cards for next season
4. Place cutting area tokens in order of finishing path
. . 4a. Take food

And my understanding is that you cannot steal food by using huts between the "place wood & food" step and the "Take food" step. Only during the "Travel on Path" step or during the "Wood Working" step.
 
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Alexander Huemer
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klbush wrote:
So is this how it should be:
Basic Variant:
1. Fill Supply path
2. Place wood & Food
. . 2a. Use Cards revealed in previous season
. . 2b. Add 1 firewood to any plot w/o wood
. . 2c. Reveal cutting area cards for next season
3. Players select Cutting areas by placing tokens
. . 3a. take food
4. Travel path

Tactical Variant:
1. Fill supply path
2. Travel on path
3. Place wood & Food
. . 3a. Use cards revealed in previous season
. . 3b. Add 1 firewood to any plot w/o wood
. . 3c. Reveal cutting area cards for next season
4. Place cutting area tokens in order of finishing path
. . 4a. Take food

And my understanding is that you cannot steal food by using huts between the "place wood & food" step and the "Take food" step. Only during the "Travel on Path" step or during the "Wood Working" step.

Hi Ken,
There is some missunderstanding with the tactical variant. I took a look at the rules and they are really not that clear in this case though they are not wrong. The steps for the tactical variant should be like this:
1. Fill supply path
2. Place wood and food
..2a) use cards revealed in previous season (1st season = use starting preparation = 3 firewood)
..2b) (add 1 firewood to any area w/o wood)
..2c) reveal cutting area cards for the next season
3. Select cutting area (starting 2nd round)= inverse sequence on the starting player track and get the food from your area
4. travel on path

Important: the wood and food is already in the area before you select the area and before you start travelling on the path. You can use your hut tokens to get food, when it´s your turn during walking the path or wood work phase.

the rules say: reveal the cards before the start of the current round. I agree that it would be better: before starting to travel on the path. But you can also reveal them before the start of the current round. You don´t use this cards before the next season.

Ken, it´s hard for me to explain in english but I hope I could clarify how to use the tactical variant. If there are still questions, please just ask ...
best regards
Alex
 
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