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Subject: EN AVANT! Significate rss

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Gromenauer Jaaarl
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Hello, I am new to the game, still learning the rules, but this question is not directly about rules, but about a card text's meaning.

With the card EN AVANT, I took one of my armies from Strasbourg to Dusseldorf, deployed a second army elsewhere, and wanted to move both.

The card reads:
Quote:
"place the following FR forces in Roermond: Contades, Broglie, 14 Inf SPs, 1 Lt Inf, 3 Cav, 1 Field Arty, 1 Siege Arty units, 1 FD."



However, the definition of force is:
Quote:
A force is any number of leaders and/or Line Infantry SPs and/or
cavalry, light infantry and artillery units in a space, with or without
a leader.


So a supply unit (FD) is not a force or so it seems.

So, can I move to Dusseldorf using this card (not needing normal supply or resupply segment) the fighting units only or the supply one as well?

****************************

Ok, supposing I follow the card instructions and move from Dusseldorf to Lippstadt, supposing I don't move the supply units, I would be in supply in Dusseldorf, and in Dortmund, which is adjacent, but I would be out of supply on arriving to Lippstadt, because my supply units are too far away, and I can not get supply form the friendly Dusseldorf fortress two hexes away...

... except because the card itself reads

Quote:
f any enter Lippstadt, Münster, or Wesel, that fortress surrenders immediately


In my opinion, this means I don't get OOS, immediately means immediately, so when I arrive to L. the city is immediately friendly so I don't get OOS and can keep on moving till the limit of the normal movement factors.

Am I right?
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Rex Stites
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The only way you're going to be able to move the FD is by expending SAs during the Supply segment or during the Rally and Resupply segment. So you're correct that you cannot move it with your initial force activation.

The question becomes whether moving to Lippstadt, whether that causes you to go OOS. You are correct that the fortress immediately falls and comes into your control. But you also worsen your supply state immediately upon moving past your Supply network.

I think you're probably right, though, that the intent is that when playing En Avant! a French force moving into Lippstadt probably stays in supply.

Complicating matters even further is the fact that post-publication, new information came to the designer that Venlo was a neutral city, and as such has been removed from the game. GMT put up a map patch to correct the situation. If you play through the Vassal module, you'll see that Venlo is no longer there. I'm not sure what the official answer for where teh forces En Avant sends to Venlo is (I think either Dussseldorf or Roermund, but I don't know if there's a choice or if one has been designated.) If Duesseldorf, then supply is no problem at that point. If Roermund, I believe it is still an issue.

Hope that helps somewhat.
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Sam Carroll
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The issue here is whether the card intends you to be able to transfer the FD. Technically, an FD is not part of a force. However, I suspect that Bob intended you to be able to transfer the FD . . . look at the part on the card where you place "new forces", one of which is an FD. Also, one of the early updates to the rulebook changed many instances of "force" to "force and/or FD", which suggests to me that the definition of "force" was changed to exclude FDs shortly before publication.

Anyway, by the card as written, you can't transfer the FD; however, there is a major depot in Roermond, according to the map patch, so your forces will not go OoS when entering Lippstadt or Munster. Even if that weren't the case, they would immediately return to full supply during the Rally & Resupply phase, since they occupy a friendly fortress.
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Rex Stites
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spartax wrote:
The issue here is whether the card intends you to be able to transfer the FD. Technically, an FD is not part of a force. However, I suspect that Bob intended you to be able to transfer the FD . . . look at the part on the card where you place "new forces", one of which is an FD. Also, one of the early updates to the rulebook changed many instances of "force" to "force and/or FD", which suggests to me that the definition of "force" was changed to exclude FDs shortly before publication.

Anyway, by the card as written, you can't transfer the FD; however, there is a major depot in Roermond, according to the map patch, so your forces will not go OoS when entering Lippstadt or Munster. Even if that weren't the case, they would immediately return to full supply during the Rally & Resupply phase, since they occupy a friendly fortress.


I don't think the card allows transfer of the FD - at least the FD placed by the card. I don't have the card in front of me, but from what I remember, the transfer portion allows you to transfer units from France's main starting position (Strasbourg[?])to any of 3 locations (I think one is Venlo, so after the map patch, just two locations). That's the first thing you do. Then you place the units (including FD) in Venlo (by the explicit terms of the card, but obviously problematic post-map patch). So I think that FD is stuck wherever it is initially placed until it is moved by the typical ways - i.e., no transfer.

But as you note, all of that is irrelevant post-map patch because th epatch makes Roermund a French MD.
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Sam Carroll
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The card text is as follows, after the post-pub update:
Quote:

Play if the "Attack Hanover" Diplomacy option is selected or in 1758 or later.

d10-1May transfer any forces in Strasbourg to Düsseldorf and/or Roermond,

d10-2 and place the following FR forces in Roermond: Contades, Broglie, 14 Inf SPs, 1 Lt Inf, 3 Cav, 1 Field Arty, 1 Siege Arty units, 1 FD.

d10-3Activate 1 or 2 FR forces. If any enter Lippstadt, Münster, or Wesel, that fortress surrenders immediately. Increase minimum FR leaders to 3 per 4.6.


So the new units get placed in Roermond. I think we're in agreement here: the first FD is stuck in Strasbourg, the second one gets placed in Roermond and is stuck there.
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Gromenauer Jaaarl
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Yes, that's what it means literally. However, as you say, Sam, I think the intention was that they all would be able to redeploy.

Unfortunately the card doesn't say so.

We knew there was a map patch but we decided to play this game the same afternoon (Sunday) and there was no time to get it, so I spent a long time planning how to maximize the effects of this initial move from the French without having to buy too many supply points or getting OOS.

There is a second part of my question, already addressed by RStites (thanks to you both, btw) that is answered too by the map patch.

Didn't know that there was a Depot in Roermond, that changes it all, and makes my question a "what if". I guess it makes no much sense to keep on thinking whether there would be a OOS in Lippstadt or Munster, it is more an exercise of rules-fiction now.
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bob kalinowski
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Sam, rstites, thanks for fielding this. Sorry I'm late to the party. Real life work is getting very in my face. I concur with your answers; FD stays put, the people and guns can move, and yes, Roermond helps answer the supply question, though it so far has affected little else in play.
 
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Gromenauer Jaaarl
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Thanks a lot!
 
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