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BattleCON: Devastation of Indines» Forums » General

Subject: Heavyweights and the new "Guard"-Base rss

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Marcel Hauptmann
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As you might know, the devs are currently thinking about using an alternative Base for Dash in BattleCON Online since they feel that Dash is too OP. That new Base is called Guard.

Last I've heard, Guard functions like this in Strategic Mode (the standard, "physical" way of playing BattleCON):
Range N/A, Power N/A, Priority 3

Stun Immunity
You can't take more than 2 damage this beat.
Start of Beat: Move up to 1 space.
End of Beat: Move up to 2 spaces.


How do Heavyweights fare with Guard, though?

Since Heavyweights tend to have a lot of Soak, they'll ironically get a lot more pressure with Guard compared to Dash. Here's an example why:
Against most other fighters, getting hit with 7 damage means that the majority of the damage gets wasted when used against Guard, resulting in a more-or-less lost beat even with the 2 damage that comes through because 5 damage points are wasted. Such high damage usually happens after preparation or in form of a Finisher, so that's troublesome if that happens. When facing Soak, though, it means that more damage actually mattered (with Soak 2, only 3 damage points have been wasted) and it turned into a decent beat for the attacker, since they usually have to resort to the big punches or to forcing Heavyweights to use less beneficial pairs anyway. So every point of damage against a Heavyweight is a small victory, especially if you're a Clocker.

On the other hand, the SoB/EoB-movement will benefit them more than the AA-movement of Dash since they tend to have low priority anyway, which also means that they don't clash as often with Strike in many matchups, making the opponent waste Strike more often than against more agile fighters (and since Strike is a high-power high-Stun Guard base, it's pretty valuable). How valuable the SoB is depends on the matchup and the situation, but in total, the Heavyweight moves up to 3 spaces and can reposition himself like usual, just more reliable with Guard.

Right off the bat, I imagine that Cesar will greatly benefit from Guard since he can counteract the negative effect of Threat Level 4 with Guard and even gets more possible plays with Fueled since SoB/EoB doesn't care if the user's stunned. Not sure about other Heavyweights, though.

Anyway, what's your opinion on that?
 
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Ed Hughes
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I think as written, guard isn't going to see much use in a lot of matchups. Cesar might use it, or Mikhail, or Rexan, but other than these edge cases, It's going to make more sense to just attack every turn.

Since most attacks in Battlecon average around three power, why would you essentially voluntarily swallow two damage when you could try for a counterplay?

Burst is the better dodge, so that'll be the go-to defensive play for Juggernauts.
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Marco Santos
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themanfromsaturn wrote:
I think as written, guard isn't going to see much use in a lot of matchups. Cesar might use it, or Mikhail, or Rexan, but other than these edge cases, It's going to make more sense to just attack every turn.


Note that this doesn't even apply. Cesar and Rexan HATE Guard because of the way they function. Rexan's tokens go away if someone gets hit (Guess what doing Guard does), meaning that an opponent can Guard and spend like 3 Tokens NP. On the other hand, Cesar's entire game-plan was to do like a 7 damage attack on his Threat 3 beat. He even EXPLICITLY has Dash counters just for that to work. Guard mitigating damage basically makes Cesar USELESS since he will NEVER benefit from his Threat 3 beat. NEVER.

SirAston wrote:
On the other hand, the SoB/EoB-movement will benefit them more than the AA-movement of Dash since they tend to have low priority anyway, which also means that they don't clash as often with Strike in many matchups, making the opponent waste Strike more often than against more agile fighters (and since Strike is a high-power high-Stun Guard base, it's pretty valuable). How valuable the SoB is depends on the matchup and the situation, but in total, the Heavyweight moves up to 3 spaces and can reposition himself like usual, just more reliable with Guard.

Right off the bat, I imagine that Cesar will greatly benefit from Guard since he can counteract the negative effect of Threat Level 4 with Guard and even gets more possible plays with Fueled since SoB/EoB doesn't care if the user's stunned. Not sure about other Heavyweights, though.

Anyway, what's your opinion on that?


Juggernauts don't have Prio -6. They usually have Prio -1 to -3. This meant that the SLOWEST dash a Juggernaut had was around Prio 6, which was still faster than Grasp. Most of the time, it was a Prio 8 Dash.

Contrary to what you might think, Slower Dashes are better than Faster Dashes. This is because, if 2 players Dash, the faster player must resolve first, giving the slower player the positioning advantage. This means that Juggernauts actually LOVED Dashing a lot, even if they were slower.

Also how BAD is SoB: Retreat 1 space when on a base? Let me tell you it was pretty bad. You know how bad? BattleCON War was designed around Burst being SoB: Retreat 1 space. The game was literally designed around that and they STILL buffed it because it was THAT weak.

Guard's SoB will not do you many favors. It's damage mitigation will hardly do you favors either. As Ed has pointed out:

themanfromsaturn wrote:
Since most attacks in Battlecon average around three power, why would you essentially voluntarily swallow two damage when you could try for a counterplay?

Burst is the better dodge, so that'll be the go-to defensive play for Juggernauts.
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Marcel Hauptmann
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mnmkami wrote:
Also how BAD is SoB: Retreat 1 space when on a base? Let me tell you it was pretty bad. You know how bad? BattleCON War was designed around Burst being SoB: Retreat 1 space. The game was literally designed around that and they STILL buffed it because it was THAT weak.

Overall agreed with your entire post, I just wanted to clarify that "SoB: Retreat 1 space" is not on the Strategic version of Guard, but on the Turbo version.
But I know, "May move 1 space" isn't that much of a difference anyway, even if it enables two more options for repositoning (including standing still).

themanfromsaturn wrote:
Since most attacks in Battlecon average around three power, why would you essentially voluntarily swallow two damage when you could try for a counterplay?

Burst is the better dodge, so that'll be the go-to defensive play for Juggernauts.

Yeah, I already felt that something like this would happen. Guard's in a rough spot right now and will feel more like a dump base for quite a good number of fighters.


Overall, to clarify, I'm NOT a fan of Guard, at least in its current form. I just felt that Heavyweights might have a special view on Guard, therefore wanting to get some opinions on it.
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Ed Hughes
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I like the 'block' base from the delta bases. I don't have the exact stats on me, but it's something like soak 3, stun guard 3, and some movements. I like it because it isn't an auto-evade, but it has some damage mitigation and a chance to reposition.

Characters like Marmelee or Clive would definitely prefer block to guard.

Edit: My mistake! I didn't notice that this iteration of guard had stun immunity.
 
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Marco Santos
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SirAston wrote:
Overall agreed with your entire post, I just wanted to clarify that "SoB: Retreat 1 space" is not on the Strategic version of Guard, but on the Turbo version.
But I know, "May move 1 space" isn't that much of a difference anyway, even if it enables two more options for repositoning (including standing still).


I knew this, but as you've said, it's not really that relevant if you're using it to dodge.

themanfromsaturn wrote:
I like the 'block' base from the delta bases. I don't have the exact stats on me, but it's something like soak 3, stun guard 3, and some movements. I like it because it isn't an auto-evade, but it has some damage mitigation and a chance to reposition.

Characters like Marmelee or Clive would definitely prefer block to guard.


Why would Marms and Clive prefer Block to Guard? I mean, I pretty much think Guard is BAD, but it has Stun Immunity and caps damage at 2. Sure, Block might mitigate more damage, but you still risk getting stunned.
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Ed Hughes
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Whoops! Somehow I missed the stun immunity. My mistake.

Byron would definitely prefer Block to Guard, as well as Magdelina, Voco, and other clockers.
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