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Subject: Non random carnivore, treat like flight??? rss

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Jay Wrobel
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After playing a game this weekend, the question came up if you could remove all carnivore cards from the deck and set aside (like flight) and if someone wants to go carnivore discard two cards to gain carnivore card. It would take away the luck or lack of waiting for the card and also would open up customization of the deck more to allow they promos and other cards. Anyone have thoughts on this???
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Trevor Schadt
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ejwrobel wrote:
After playing a game this weekend, the question came up if you could remove all carnivore cards from the deck and set aside (like flight) and if someone wants to go carnivore discard two cards to gain carnivore card. It would take away the luck or lack of waiting for the card and also would open up customization of the deck more to allow they promos and other cards. Anyone have thoughts on this???
A large part of the strategy of the game is when and how to either (a) create a carnivore, or (b) transition a species from omnivore to carnivore or vice versa. Having the element of surprise be a part of that decision also puts the onus on the non-carnivores of when and how to add defensive traits.
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Liz Burton
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ejwrobel wrote:
After playing a game this weekend, the question came up if you could remove all carnivore cards from the deck and set aside (like flight) and if someone wants to go carnivore discard two cards to gain carnivore card. It would take away the luck or lack of waiting for the card and also would open up customization of the deck more to allow they promos and other cards. Anyone have thoughts on this???


If you could do this in an app, so your opponents wouldn't know, it would be a great idea. I think it should be a one-to-one card trade for the Carnivore trait. I like the idea of guaranteed access to the trait.

But doing it at the table, where you lose the element of surprise...that's not going to work well.
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Dominic Crapuchettes
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Liz is right. We tested your proposal 5 or 6 times and we did not like it as much. Losing the element of surprise was not good for the tension of the game and made it less exciting. I think the game works better with a bunch of Carnivore cards to ensure that you'll draw one every turn or two. Part of the strategy is knowing when to hold a Carnivore card because you know you'll need one later.

The version we tested had 3 different types of Carnivores. You discarded a card to get one of them, and they went on a stand in front of your species. They looked menacing and did not count as a trait slot (but they were also a bit annoying because they got in the way).
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Jay Wrobel
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Thanks all. Good to hear it was tested also. I can see the element of surprise aspect as the game certainly changes once a carnivore or two are out there. We played a couple of games where one player never saw a carnivore and they were bummed.

Out of curiosity, I wonder why flight was made an 'out of game' trait as it could have the same element of surprise if a normal card.
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Doc Jones
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If you didn't have to use the carnivore card immediately after "purchasing" it, you could still maintain the element of surprise.

Are you making a carnivore next turn? Are you buying it to spring at an opportune time? Or are you just bluffing to make your opponents waste cards on defensive traits or size increases, while you gobble up the food?
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Dominic Crapuchettes
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ejwrobel wrote:
Thanks all. Good to hear it was tested also. I can see the element of surprise aspect as the game certainly changes once a carnivore or two are out there. We played a couple of games where one player never saw a carnivore and they were bummed.

Out of curiosity, I wonder why flight was made an 'out of game' trait as it could have the same element of surprise if a normal card.


The element of surprise is essential for Carnivores but not essential for a trait like Flight.
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Mark Ogilvie
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Doc_Jones wrote:
If you didn't have to use the carnivore card immediately after "purchasing" it, you could still maintain the element of surprise.

Are you making a carnivore next turn? Are you buying it to spring at an opportune time? Or are you just bluffing to make your opponents waste cards on defensive traits or size increases, while you gobble up the food?


This is interesting and inspired a slightly different take: There's a separate stack of carnivore cards, and everyone starts the game with one in their hand. Whenever they reveal that they have used their card, they replace it in their hand with one from the stack. No purchase necessary.

This does make me curious about how removing all those carnivore cards from the standard draw pile would affect the rest of the game. Draw probability in Evolution seems so delicately balanced that it took me a long time to entertain even using the promo cards.
 
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Travis Morton
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IF, notice big 'if', you go the "ultra violent" route aka Carnivore whenever you want, you cannthen shuffle whatever card you want in without worrying about balance. Since, imo, the largest balancing issue was "Are there enough Carnivores? Or at least often enoug?".

 
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Mark Ogilvie
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I don't think it would necessarily be ultra-violent, considering you can almost carnivore whenever you want anyway. I think I remember hearing/reading that you're meant to draw a carnivore into your hand something like 50% of the time you draw? And you're not using that card to make a carnivore every time you pick it up, either.

Now that I think about it, my proposed system works better if you're playing the "simultaneous turns" variant, which I had initially forgotten was a variant at all, since it's the only way my group plays.
 
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Dominic Crapuchettes
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knuckles29 wrote:
IF, notice big 'if', you go the "ultra violent" route aka Carnivore whenever you want, you cannthen shuffle whatever card you want in without worrying about balance. Since, imo, the largest balancing issue was "Are there enough Carnivores? Or at least often enoug?".



diluting your chance of drawing any other specific card is also affected and it often has a dramatic negative affect on gameplay. The obvious example is needing an Ambush for Warning Call, but the same is true of Climbing or anything you're setting yourself up for. Sometimes you need a Pack Hunting or a Foraging, etc. The bottom line is messing with the card balance often (but not always) hurts the balance of the game.
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Travis Morton
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I would not argue the percentages are lower on any given specific card. But for a Kitchen Sink approach, at least always having access to Carnivore keeps things a little more reliable since that is the trait that needs the most consistency.
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