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Ashes: Rise of the Phoenixborn» Forums » Rules

Subject: Hammer Knight VA Living doll from the FAQ rss

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Anthony Wilborn
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So the FAQ concluded that when a player uses a Hammer Knight to attack the Living Doll, the Living Doll's ability does not trigger...

Basically the conclusion was that the aftershock ability resolves first because the active player chooses so. Because the wound from aftershock is enough to destroy the Living Doll, the Living Doll's ability Pain Link does not trigger...

Honestly, this is not clear to me.

The Living Doll only has 3 life. The Hammer Knight has 4 attack. The damage from the attack alone is enough to destroy the Living Doll and the FAQ states that if an effect destroys a unit then the damage resolution starts from 2b:

Step 2b: Effects that trigger on a unit’s destruction or a Phoenixborn’s destruction happen now.

Then, even more perplexing is that the Living Doll's ability Pain Link states that you inflict X damage where X is equal to the damage received, or the Living Doll's life value...

How would she ever deal her life value if an effect deals enough damage (her life value or over) would destroy her and an effect that is enough to destroy her starts the damage resolution process from step 2b?!?!
 
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Jonathan Liu
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konicki wrote:
that if an effect destroys a unit then the damage resolution starts from 2b:


Dealing damage isn't an effect so you start at Step 1. You only skip steps if there's a special effect that just says, say, "place a wound" or "destroy a unit."

konicki wrote:
How would she ever deal her life value if an effect deals enough damage (her life value or over) would destroy her and an effect that is enough to destroy her starts the damage resolution process from step 2b?!?!


Same answer as above. Attacks and effects that say "deal damage" start the resolution process at Step 1.

Hope that helps clarify!
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Sergio Perez
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konicki wrote:
So the FAQ concluded that when a player uses a Hammer Knight to attack the Living Doll, the Living Doll's ability does not trigger...


Not quite what the FAQ says:
"When I attack a Living Doll with my Hammer Knight and I choose to place a wound token on that Living Doll with the Hammer Knight’s Aftershock 1 ability, and that wound token would destroy it, can my opponent trigger the Living Doll’s Pain Link ability to deal damage from the damage it was dealt by the Hammer Knight’s attack?"

The FAQ is saying that if the wound caused by the Hammer Knight's Aftershock 1 ability would be enough to destroy the Living Doll, the Living Doll's owner would not be able to trigger Pain Link (i.e. if the Living Doll had enough wounds on it such that 1 wound would destroy it). If the single wound is not enough to destroy it, then the Pain Link can trigger. Then, go to step 2 and add wound tokens to the Living Doll equal to the damage the Hammer Knight dealt via its attack.

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Grace Paterson
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To elaborate a bit, I *think* that the following is the sequence of events indicated by the FAQ (Note that I'm still fairly new to the game so this could be wrong)
--
The damage and destruction resolution step for Living Doll from HK's attack begins at step 1:

Step 1: LD receives 4 damage (from HK’s attack)
Step 1b: Aftershock 1 is triggered (before Pain Link, by player 1's choice) meaning that 1 wound token is placed on LD and a new damage and destruction resolution phase for LD now begins at step 2:
NEW Step 2: Place 4 wound token on LD (from the attack damage it took in Step 1). Since there are a number of wound tokens on LD equal to or greater to its life value, it is immediately destroyed.
NEW Step 2b: effects triggered on LD’s destruction happen
NEW Step 3: LD is discarded
NEW Step 3b: Effects triggered by LD leaving play happen

Original damage and resolution phase would now continue at the original Step 1.b except LD is no longer in play. Pain Link therefore never triggers.
 
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Grace Paterson
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Surge1000 wrote:

The FAQ is saying that if the wound caused by the Hammer Knight's Aftershock 1 ability would be enough to destroy the Living Doll, the Living Doll's owner would not be able to trigger Pain Link (i.e. if the Living Doll had enough wounds on it such that 1 wound would destroy it). If the single wound is not enough to destroy it, then the Pain Link can trigger. Then, go to step 2 and add wound tokens to the Living Doll equal to the damage the Hammer Knight dealt via its attack.



Oh hey, I totally misread the scenario. My step 2 should actually just say "Since there are a number of wound tokens on LD equal to or greater to its life value, it is immediately destroyed." which is a much more sensible way for the rules to work than how I'd initially read it.
 
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Anthony Wilborn
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Alright, thanks for the clarification. An attack is not considered an "effect". That said, does the player who plays the last Sympathy Pain then win the game?
 
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Nathan Fritz
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konicki wrote:
That said, does the player who plays the last Sympathy Pain then win the game?


By that, do you mean a situation like this?

1. Player A deals damage to Player B's Phoenixborn bringing it to within 3 damage of dead, but not killing it.

2. When damage is applied to their Phoenixborn, Player B plays Sympathy Pain dealing enough damage to kill Player A's Phoenixborn.

3. In response to taking that damage, Player A, plays their own Sympathy Pain, dealing the killing blow to Player B's Phoenixborn.

Both players have played a Sympathy Pain. The Sympathy Pain that resolves first will determine the winner of the game.
 
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Nathan Fritz
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That example is discussed here: http://www.plaidhatgames.com/sum_forums/showthread.php?11861...

I'll summarize when I get a chance, but I have to get to work now :-/
 
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Sergio Perez
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konicki wrote:
Alright, thanks for the clarification. An attack is not considered an "effect".


That is true, but it is only one factor in how this scenario resolves (Hammer Knight vs. Living Doll).

The point is, and I'm not sure anyone else has made this point in this thread, the Pain Link DOES trigger if the Aftershock 1 wound does not cause the Living Doll to be destroyed. The FAQ is answering what happens in the scenario where the Living Doll has capacity only to obtain 1 more wound before being destroyed. A Hammer Knight's Aftershock 1 ability does not preclude a Living Doll's Pain Link ability from triggering if the Living Doll being attacked does not already have wound tokens on it (assuming no life reducing effects on the Living Doll).

So, for example, Hammer Knight attacks a Living Doll without wound tokens on it -> Living Doll's owner makes decision regarding counterattack -> damage is assigned (not wounds) -> active player chooses to activate Aftershock 1, which resolves -> 1 wound assigned to Living Doll -> Pain Link triggers and fully resolves -> wound counters added to Hammer Knight and Living Doll for damage assigned from the initial attack (which is likely 0 to the Hammer Knight for this step). The Living Doll would be destroyed. The Hammer Knight may have already been destroyed by the resolution of Pain Link -> move on to step 2b - effects that trigger on a unit’s destruction.

The FAQ clarifies that abilities such as Aftershock and Pain Link trigger "an entirely new damage and destruction resolution process." That is why the Hammer Knight's attack/Aftershock 1 ability does not result in the Living Doll being destroyed before Pain Link can be activated unless the 1 wound from Aftershock 1 would destroy the Living Doll (i.e. a Living Doll within 1 wound of destruction).

 
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Chris Hewlett
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nbfritz wrote:
konicki wrote:
That said, does the player who plays the last Sympathy Pain then win the game?


Both players have played a Sympathy Pain. The Sympathy Pain that resolves first will determine the winner of the game.


I am fairly certain this is incorrect. Each Sympathy Pain was played off a different damage trigger, so they are not simultaneous. Therefore there is no need for active player to chose order of resolution, the second SP resolves to wounds, then the first SP resolves to wounds, then the original damage resolves to wounds.
 
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Nathan Fritz
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albino_penguin wrote:
nbfritz wrote:
konicki wrote:
That said, does the player who plays the last Sympathy Pain then win the game?


Both players have played a Sympathy Pain. The Sympathy Pain that resolves first will determine the winner of the game.


I am fairly certain this is incorrect. Each Sympathy Pain was played off a different damage trigger, so they are not simultaneous. Therefore there is no need for active player to chose order of resolution, the second SP resolves to wounds, then the first SP resolves to wounds, then the original damage resolves to wounds.


Sorry. I was just summing up the scenario as I was imagining it. And I started with an older, incorrect understanding of the damage resolution process.

With the clarified rules in the FAQ, there is a "stack" of sorts. But shallower than in other games, given that there is a 1-reaction-per-player limit that helps to keep it under control.

So when the Player A responded by playing the 2nd Sympathy Pain, it gets resolved all the way through to the end of its own damage resolution steps (including wounds.) When those wounds are placed, the Player B's PB dies and the game ends immediately.
 
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