Recommend
2 
 Thumb up
 Hide
28 Posts
1 , 2  Next »   | 

Star Wars: Imperial Assault» Forums » Rules

Subject: Can Recover save you from Death rss

Your Tags: Add tags
Popular Tags: [View All]
Owen Sieber
United States
McMinnville
Oregon
flag msg tools
I'm looking forward to having some real talk with some real folks!
badge
Hi, I'm Matt, A radar technician.
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
I am sure the answer is no but I thought I would check since I am not 100% on this.

The Empire has the Final Blast card.

One of his figures have Recover as an ability.

If the Figure gets defeated and then the Final Blast interrupt happens. During that attack the figure triggers an ability to recover 2 damage, can that figure recover the damage to prevent them from being defeated?
1 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Jorgen Peddersen
Australia
Sydney
New South Wales
flag msg tools
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
It can indeed save itself from defeat if it recovers damage via an ability.

The attack is an Interrupt, and the interrupt made the defeat invalid. The rules tell us that an effect made invalid by an interrupt stops resolving.

Thus, the figure is never defeated.
3 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Owen Sieber
United States
McMinnville
Oregon
flag msg tools
I'm looking forward to having some real talk with some real folks!
badge
Hi, I'm Matt, A radar technician.
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
Clipper wrote:
It can indeed save itself from defeat if it recovers damage via an ability.

The attack is an Interrupt, and the interrupt made the defeat invalid. The rules tell us that an effect made invalid by an interrupt stops resolving.

Thus, the figure is never defeated.

Nice!
thanks, I will take a closer look.
 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Owen Sieber
United States
McMinnville
Oregon
flag msg tools
I'm looking forward to having some real talk with some real folks!
badge
Hi, I'm Matt, A radar technician.
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
Still unclear then on the timing...

Interrupt bullet 2:
If the interrupt makes the current action or ablity invalid, that effect is not resolved. Any costs used to resolve that effect or still paid.


The card says interrupt when your damage taken equals your health that is part of the attack and if it is prevented then the damage is gone before the defeated.

That to me means the interrupt is during the attack and if I recover the damage, then it can not be defeated per the above rule.

So does the interrupt happens during the attack or after?

 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Louis S
United States
Illinois
flag msg tools
mbmbmbmbmb
Message sent to FFG to get the official ruling on it
4 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Jorgen Peddersen
Australia
Sydney
New South Wales
flag msg tools
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
The interrupt happens during whatever deals the damage that would have defeated the figure. The attack resolves, then after the attack, you return to resolving defeat, but the figure is no longer valid to be defeated, so it is cancelled.

 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Louis S
United States
Illinois
flag msg tools
mbmbmbmbmb
Clipper wrote:
The interrupt happens during whatever deals the damage that would have defeated the figure. The attack resolves, then after the attack, you return to resolving defeat, but the figure is no longer valid to be defeated, so it is cancelled.



I understand your reasoning and see the timing of it, but it seems too much in the favor of the Imps and defeats (pun intended) the intention of the card.

You can also say it is a paradox too because then the figure is not defeated so it wouldn't have been able to trigger the final blast in the first place.

Is there a Final, Final Blast card?
 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Jorgen Peddersen
Australia
Sydney
New South Wales
flag msg tools
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
The mechanics of Recover abilities are all a bit odd anyway. It is an ability typically linked to mechanical figures (Probe Droid, E-Web Engineer, etc.), so it almost seems like they are using some of the energy of firing their weapon to implement repairs. Thematically, this could work when critical damage has been taken too, saving the unit from destruction.

The Rebels also have access to similar abilities with Returh to Hoth. MHD-19 has a Class card and a Command card which can heal a character that has suffered damage equal to its Health.
 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Craig S.
United States
Seattle
Washington
flag msg tools
badge
mbmbmbmbmb
sithbunny36 wrote:
Clipper wrote:
The interrupt happens during whatever deals the damage that would have defeated the figure. The attack resolves, then after the attack, you return to resolving defeat, but the figure is no longer valid to be defeated, so it is cancelled.



I understand your reasoning and see the timing of it, but it seems too much in the favor of the Imps and defeats (pun intended) the intention of the card.

You can also say it is a paradox too because then the figure is not defeated so it wouldn't have been able to trigger the final blast in the first place.

Is there a Final, Final Blast card?


Hehe...well, either way, Final Blast is a deplete card, so even if the figure saves itself...that blast is Final.
 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Jeremy N
msg tools
As mentioned, I'd imagine the Recover 2 is invalid since:

Quote:
If an interrupt makes the current action or ability invalid, that
effect is not resolved. Any costs used to resolve that effect are
still paid.

For example, if a player plays a Command card that allows it to
attack a figure, and the figure interrupts to move out of line of
sight, the Command card is discarded and the action spent on
the attack is lost.
 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Jorgen Peddersen
Australia
Sydney
New South Wales
flag msg tools
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
jnad83 wrote:
As mentioned, I'd imagine the Recover 2 is invalid since:


Huh? What we're saying is that the Recover makes the defeat invalid.

Nothing about having suffering damage equal to your Health forbids you from Recovering damage. Of course, that situation usually triggers being defeated, which certainly would make Recovering damage invalid, but you aren't defeated in this instance. The attack, and hence the Recovery, happens before the figure would be defeated. Once the attack is done, the figure is no longer valid to be defeated.
 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Jeremy N
msg tools
Clipper wrote:
jnad83 wrote:
As mentioned, I'd imagine the Recover 2 is invalid since:


Huh? What we're saying is that the Recover makes the defeat invalid.

Nothing about having suffering damage equal to your Health forbids you from Recovering damage. Of course, that situation usually triggers being defeated, which certainly would make Recovering damage invalid, but you aren't defeated in this instance. The attack, and hence the Recovery, happens before the figure would be defeated. Once the attack is done (and therefore Final Stand is done), the figure is no longer valid to be defeated.


The rules clearly state Recover happens after the attack resolves, in which case the attack (and therefore Final Blast) is done:
Quote:
Some cards use Recover as a keyword. For example “S:
Recover 1H” allows the figure to spend a S (surge) during an
attack to recover 1H after resolving the attack. He can recover
this H even if the target of his attack does not suffer any H.


The real question is, the figure still has max damage, and is defeated, but the recover action is still present. How is the conflict resolved?
Quote:
During a campaign, mission rules are resolved first, followed by
effects from the Imperial player, then effects from the Rebel players.


Recover is an Imperial player effect. Is Defeated a Mission rule (RRG), Imperial effect, or Rebel effect? Would defeated still happen first?

Also, the relevant card (with the exact text that the interrupt is limited to the extent of the attack):


It does also create more paradoxes.

Is Defeated an interrupt of Attacking Step 7. Calculate Damage (pretty sure it is, since there was a Blast ruling a while back about a RCG interrupting a defeat to move away before Blast activates)? If so, if the figure was scheduled to take damage in excess of its health (i.e. 10 damage for 5 health), does it continue taking damage after healing (unwinding the interrupt sequence back to the rebel attack)?
 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Jorgen Peddersen
Australia
Sydney
New South Wales
flag msg tools
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
I'll deal with the last bit first... Any excess damage has already been ignored before the attack, as the rules for suffering damage say to only suffer damage up to the Health value and not beyond it.

Also, yes, if you happen to make it so a figure has suffered damage equal to its Heath during Step 7 of an attack, the Defeat is resolved before attack resolution. This is key to the ruling that Gaarkhan's Rage cannot trigger on an attack which wounds him. This timing doesn't really matter here, though.

Now yes, Recovery occurs after the attack resolves. But we would still not have resumed the interrupted effect which caused the Imperial figure to suffer the Damage for Final Blast. Here is how I see it:

I will use timing with letters to determine the various threads involved. When going to a new letter, it means an effect has interrupted.

A1: Imperial figure is targeted by some effect causing it to suffer damage.
A2: Imperial figure suffers the damage up to its Health value and ignores excess damage.

B1: Imperial Player depletes Final Blast.
B2: Imperial figure attacks and chooses to activate Recover ability.
B3: Attack resolves.
B4: Imperial figure Recovers damage.
B5: Final Blast resolves.

A3: Check to see if figure should be defeated, which is no longer valid.
A4: effect that caused the Imperial figure to suffer damage resolves.
1 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Jeremy N
msg tools
Clipper wrote:
A1: Imperial figure is targeted by some effect causing it to suffer damage.
A2: Imperial figure suffers the damage up to its Health value and ignores excess damage.

B1: Imperial Player depletes Final Blast.
B2: Imperial figure attacks and chooses to activate Recover ability.
B3: Attack resolves.
B4: Imperial figure Recovers damage.
B5: Final Blast resolves.

A3: Check to see if figure should be defeated, which is no longer valid.
A4: effect that caused the Imperial figure to suffer damage resolves.

Final Blast is not an action.

The exact text says:
Quote:
Before it is defeated, it may interrupt to perform an attack.


The attack is done, your sequence is:
B1: Imperial Player depletes Final Blast. Which grants an attack interrupt.
B2: Imperial figure attacks and chooses to activate Recover ability.
B3: Attack resolves. Interrupt is done.
B4: Check if defeated.
B4: Imperial figure Recovers damage.

Putting "Check to see of figure is defeated" in the rebel action means if I suffer strain-damage while not in attack, I'm not defeated until the next thing attacks me. That rationale makes no sense.

Defeat is a constant instantaneous effect. At any point if your damage is equal to your health, you are Defeated.


This is about what resolution order that conflict gets resolved.
 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Pasi Ojala
Finland
Tampere
flag msg tools
Get the Imperial Assault Campaign module for Vassal from http://www.vassalengine.org/wiki/Module:Star_Wars:_Imperial_Assault
badge
The next Total Solar Eclipse holiday in 2024 in USA? See you there!
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
jnad83 wrote:
Final Blast is not an action.

No-one said it were.
 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Jeremy N
msg tools
a1bert wrote:
jnad83 wrote:
Final Blast is not an action.

No-one said it were.

Then why are you listing it as a step?
 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Jorgen Peddersen
Australia
Sydney
New South Wales
flag msg tools
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
The depletion and resolution of Final Blast is also an interrupt, even though it's not an action, nor uses the word interupt. Technically, I could have used:

A1-A2: as above
B1: Deplete Final Blast
C1: Resolve attack activating Recover
C2: Recover
B2: Final Blast resolves
A3-A4: as above

But I wanted to be less complicated.

My point is that anything that triggers to be resolved after the attack will happen before the initial effect (the A path) resumes. Resuming the interrupted thing before or at the same time as resolving something triggered by the interrupt leads to brain burn.
 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Pasi Ojala
Finland
Tampere
flag msg tools
Get the Imperial Assault Campaign module for Vassal from http://www.vassalengine.org/wiki/Module:Star_Wars:_Imperial_Assault
badge
The next Total Solar Eclipse holiday in 2024 in USA? See you there!
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
I don't understand. Things happen in certain order, why Clipper numbered them, and separated the effects of the attack and Final Blast with A and B respectively.

Nothing is simultaneous, even things that have an identical trigger are resolved in the order specified by Timing (during an attack mission rules, attacker abilities, defender abilities, inside the categories imperial, attacker, defender choice).
 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Jorgen Peddersen
Australia
Sydney
New South Wales
flag msg tools
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
I think Jeremy is trying to argue that the defeat of the figure resolves at the same time it would Recover the damage, Pasi. In some ways, they both happen 'after the attack'. I assume that's why he numbered both as "B4".

If that were the case, he would be right that you could figure that the defeat resolves as a mission effect before the Recovery had a chance to be resolved.

However, I fully disagree that they are the same timing, as per my post above. Things the attack triggered would resolve as part of the interrupt before the initial effect resolves.
 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Sean Riley
United States
Glendale
Arizona
flag msg tools
I Am One With The Force
badge
The Force Is With Me
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb

The exact text says:
Quote:
Before it is defeated, it may interrupt to perform an attack.


jnad83 wrote:

Defeat is a constant instantaneous effect. At any point if your damage is equal to your health, you are Defeated.


The card is explicitly stating that there is an interrupt between 2 steps.

1) The damage is equal to your health.
2) Remove figure from the board (defeated)

During that interrupt, as a last ditch effort, the figure attacks and in doing so is able to heal itself. As it now no longer devoid of health, it doesn't make sense to remove a figure that still has health from play.

This is at least how I see it.
 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Pasi Ojala
Finland
Tampere
flag msg tools
Get the Imperial Assault Campaign module for Vassal from http://www.vassalengine.org/wiki/Module:Star_Wars:_Imperial_Assault
badge
The next Total Solar Eclipse holiday in 2024 in USA? See you there!
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
Clipper wrote:
I think Jeremy is trying to argue that the defeat of the figure resolves at the same time it would Recover the damage

Well, to me it seems clear that they can't be simultaneous because Final Blast specifies that the attack happens before defeating the figure. It literally says so.

The attack from Final Blast must be fully resolved before continuing with whatever effect (not necessarily attack, it could be Experimental Arms, or bleed) originally caused the figure to have damage upto its health.
 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Jeremy N
msg tools
I don't have in interest either way this plays out.


My point was the issue is more complicated than Clipper's original #2 post.


az933k wrote:

The exact text says:
Quote:
Before it is defeated

That's a landmine. There's lots of instances where the keyword Before means literal before than Interrupt Before.

In this case, the interrupt is the attack.
 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Pasi Ojala
Finland
Tampere
flag msg tools
Get the Imperial Assault Campaign module for Vassal from http://www.vassalengine.org/wiki/Module:Star_Wars:_Imperial_Assault
badge
The next Total Solar Eclipse holiday in 2024 in USA? See you there!
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
(Before is not a keyword. Before is just a word. )
 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
David Hladky
Czech Republic
flag msg tools
badge
Working on Perdition's Mouth game content
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
IMO "before it is defeated" is valid. Technically the unit can die next rounds which makes this statement still valid. It means the unit is still alive when doing the attack, which is important due to other rules (such as it is still on the map and therefore all bonuses/maluses from nearby figures apply).

The card says it is triggered by the damage done by the attack, but there is no requirement the unit to be defeated if it recovers any health during the attack.
 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Chuck Finnley
msg tools
az933k wrote:

The exact text says:
Quote:
Before it is defeated, it may interrupt to perform an attack.


jnad83 wrote:

Defeat is a constant instantaneous effect. At any point if your damage is equal to your health, you are Defeated.


The card is explicitly stating that there is an interrupt between 2 steps.

1) The damage is equal to your health.
2) Remove figure from the board (defeated)

During that interrupt, as a last ditch effort, the figure attacks and in doing so is able to heal itself. As it now no longer devoid of health, it doesn't make sense to remove a figure that still has health from play.

This is at least how I see it.


This is my interpretation as well.
 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
1 , 2  Next »   | 
Front Page | Welcome | Contact | Privacy Policy | Terms of Service | Advertise | Support BGG | Feeds RSS
Geekdo, BoardGameGeek, the Geekdo logo, and the BoardGameGeek logo are trademarks of BoardGameGeek, LLC.