Recommend
8 
 Thumb up
 Hide
29 Posts
1 , 2  Next »   | 

Advanced Squad Leader» Forums » Rules

Subject: Hazardous movement for manhandling a gun: when does it stop? rss

Your Tags: Add tags
Popular Tags: [View All]
Martí Cabré

Terrassa
Catalonia, Spain
msg tools
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Siege_of_Barcelona_(1713–14)
badge
https://spanishpolice.github.io
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
Manhandling a gun is a hazardous movement. Hazardous movement applies a -2 DRM to fire on the manhandling unit. At which moment does the DRM ceases to apply?

The A4.62 rules say that the manhandling unit receives a -2 DRM to any fire attack regardless of fire phase until it is pinned.

Also, the C11.3 EX makes clear that a unit firing during the DFPh on a gun that has been manhandled during the previous MPh still applies the -2 DRM as Case O.

ASL SK EP#1 rules go further to say "[...] any fire attack directed at it that player turn regardless of fire phase [...]". Note that it is said explicitly that the -2 applies during the whole player turn.

Now, searching on the Internet I've found some GS threads that settle on the contrary, that the -2 applies only during the manhandling unit's own MPh and no further. That is based on a 2003 Q&A from Perry that says that the -2 DRM for manhandling applies only during its MPh, no further.

The Index adds no information to the description of Hazardous Movement, and there are no changes on these particular rules from the 1st Ed rules.

Now, what is your take on this? When does the Hazardous Movement penalty ceases to apply to units that have Manhandled a Gun?
 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Nadir Elfarra
United States
Pasadena
California
flag msg tools
designer
badge
I'm here to kick ass and chew bubblegum...
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
Typically a formally answered Q&A is considered a solid ruling. Is there a reason you're not satisfied by that?

If it was only a "Perry Sez" (i.e. an informal reply in a forum like this or ConSimWorld) then I would agree the answer is unclear.

-N
 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Mattias Elfström
Sweden
Unspecified
flag msg tools
badge
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
A4.62 actually doesn't say that. It says that the hazardous movement modifier applies regardless of fire phase.

The C11.3 EX is suspect, but I've been told that examples should be considered rules.

The Q&A you mention seems like a logical application of A4.62.
 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
John Brock
United States
Pennsylvania
flag msg tools
mbmbmbmbmb
Mattias wrote:
A4.62 actually doesn't say that. It says that the hazardous movement modifier applies regardless of fire phase.

The C11.3 EX is suspect, but I've been told that examples should be considered rules.

The Q&A you mention seems like a logical application of A4.62.

In my rather vague memory with NRBH, Haz Move has generally applied throughout the entire player turn. I'm thinking that there was some rule (possibly back to SL) where Haz Move as it applied to Crew Survival would still be in effect in the AFPh (assuming the surviving crew was from a defender's vehicle and thus had a reason to be targeted then).

Rulebooks not available ATM to double check this, unfortunately.

Edited to reflect that it was a pretty piss-poor answer!
 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Bruce Probst
Australia
Glen Waverley
VIC
flag msg tools
designer
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
Ordinarily (and ideally) the rule invoking Hazardous Movement also specifies for how long it is in effect once invoked.

The "regardless of fire phase" quote from the general rule simply means that (unlike, e.g., FFMO) the DRM can apply in any fire phase where the unit might be attacked. Or to put it another way, it doesn't have to be the MPh.

I am NRBH, but having just looked it up recently, I know that the HazMove penalty for Crew Survival applies only during the phase that the vehicle was eliminated in. Once you move on to the next phase in the turn, the crew is no longer subject to that penalty. So any claim that "Hazardous Movement always applies for the entire turn" is not correct.

I am pretty sure that some HazMove activities -- e.g., mine clearance -- do last until the end of the CCPh (when the actual dice for mine clearance are rolled) -- so pretty much the entire turn in that particular case.

If the Manhandling rules don't specifically set a time limit, then I'd agree that they are vague in that respect, but I have no reason to disbelieve the Q&A that says it only applies during the MPh.

In the absence of anything else, I would argue that in general the HazMove penalty would only last for the specific phase that activity occurs in -- but each specific rule should make it clear.
1 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Marc Hanna
United States
Eastbourne, England (Yankee go home!)
Florida
flag msg tools
badge
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
Good catch on the ambiguous rule here...

A4.62 has a specific list of hazardous activities that require the -2 DRM regardless of fire phase as long as 'so engaged.' The rule also points out that hazardous movement does indeed apply to PRC survival.

The C11.3 rule is supportive of A4.62 in the case of a gun pushed that 'has just been pushed out of it's emplaced hex' -- whatever 'has just been pushed' means in terms of turns or phases, is not clear. We can assume it means sometime during that player turn (not the entire turn)...maybe.

The problem is the use of the word 'engaged' in A4.62. 'Engaged' is not found in the Index. Looking up labor status, C10.3 (in the case of gun pushing), does not illuminate any information about the duration of engagement, especially now that it may be marked with a labor status -- does that status indicate that it is still 'engaged?'

At this point, I think we must turn to the definition of 'movement' in ASLRB V2. Per A4 and A4.2 and undoubtedly other places (i'm not looking into all instances, the ASOP, etc.), movement ends at the end of a unit's movement phase.

I think we are to glean that, as an exception, hazardous movement drm does apply to the end of the player turn for the activities listed in A4.62 (i.e. beyond the MPh to the very end of the player turn). However, the rule A4.62 probably should read 'engaged for the rest of the player turn' or some such....

edit -- typos


1 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Martí Cabré

Terrassa
Catalonia, Spain
msg tools
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Siege_of_Barcelona_(1713–14)
badge
https://spanishpolice.github.io
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
Nadir_E wrote:
Typically a formally answered Q&A is considered a solid ruling. Is there a reason you're not satisfied by that?

If it was only a "Perry Sez" (i.e. an informal reply in a forum like this or ConSimWorld) then I would agree the answer is unclear.

-N


Nadir, I would be satisfied by the 2003 Q&A but it is both in direct contradiction of the 2000 C11.3 EX and the 2011 ASL SK EP#1 rule, which is explicit in saying that hazardous movement penalty for manhandling lasts for the whole player turn.

It seems that the penalty for other actions is quite clear that either applies only for that phase or for the whole turn, but in this case it's not explicit so it could be either.

A Q&A says one thing and two versions of the rules say the contrary.
1 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Martí Cabré

Terrassa
Catalonia, Spain
msg tools
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Siege_of_Barcelona_(1713–14)
badge
https://spanishpolice.github.io
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
Mattias wrote:
A4.62 actually doesn't say that. It says that the hazardous movement modifier applies regardless of fire phase.

The C11.3 EX is suspect, but I've been told that examples should be considered rules.

The Q&A you mention seems like a logical application of A4.62.


I don't follow your train of thought.

What does A4.62 not say that I'm saying it does?

Examples are considered rules, yes. The Index is rules also, but in this case there's nothing there.

The Q&A I mention says the opposite of A4.62.

 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Brian Roundhill
United States
Austin
Texas
flag msg tools
mbmb
marticabre wrote:
Mattias wrote:
A4.62 actually doesn't say that. It says that the hazardous movement modifier applies regardless of fire phase.

The C11.3 EX is suspect, but I've been told that examples should be considered rules.

The Q&A you mention seems like a logical application of A4.62.


I don't follow your train of thought.

What does A4.62 not say that I'm saying it does?

Examples are considered rules, yes. The Index is rules also, but in this case there's nothing there.

The Q&A I mention says the opposite of A4.62.




I read A4.62 as saying Hazardous Movement applies in the given phase, no matter which phase that is. Movement implies it would apply in the MPh, like FFMO and FFNAM, so this tries to clarify that.

B21.41 is explicit that Hazardous Movement applies as long as the unit is in the hex. Do not know if that means anything, but it is.
 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Martí Cabré

Terrassa
Catalonia, Spain
msg tools
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Siege_of_Barcelona_(1713–14)
badge
https://spanishpolice.github.io
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
Roundhill wrote:

I read A4.62 as saying Hazardous Movement applies in the given phase, no matter which phase that is. Movement implies it would apply in the MPh, like FFMO and FFNAM, so this tries to clarify that.


Oh, ok. Yes, this could be a clarification regards FFMO/FFNAM.
 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Marc Hanna
United States
Eastbourne, England (Yankee go home!)
Florida
flag msg tools
badge
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
Roundhill wrote:


B21.41 is explicit that Hazardous Movement applies as long as the unit is in the hex. Do not know if that means anything, but it is.


Good point but clearly enough this is specifically for units 'engaged' in fording. Fording isn't something you can duck and cover from, like soldiers pushing a gun might be able to do because they have 'stopped moving.'

Not that a realism argument is relevant; it's purely conjecture as to the rule writer's intent in context of two very different hazards.

The rule seem to be in need of clarification. I have been basing my play on an assumption that the gun-push hazard DRM ends when the player turn ends.

2 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
BattleSchool Managing Editor
Canada
Ottawa
Ontario
flag msg tools
mbmbmbmbmb
A close read of C10.3 suggests that the application of the Haz Mov DRM is even more circumscribed than for CS. If, as the text in parenthesis below suggests, Pushing a Gun is equivalent to making a Manhandling DR, the Haz Mov DRM only applies when the Gun is actually being Pushed, i.e. during the MPh of the unit(s) Pushing the Gun, or its MPh.

Quote:
C10.3 PUSHING: ...Pushing a Gun (i.e., making a Manhandling DR) is Hazardous Movement, prevents Assault Movement, and cannot be attempted while carrying PP, or moving beneath a Wire/Panji counter, or attempting a Minimum Move. ...If the Final Manhandling DR is > the M#, neither the Gun nor any pushing unit(s) can be moved farther during that MPh but the pushing unit(s) receives a -1 Labor counter for use in its next attempt. If the Final Manhandling DR equals the M#, the Gun and pushing unit(s) can enter that hex but cannot be moved any farther during that MPh. If the Final Manhandling DR is < the M#, the Gun can enter that hex and either attempt to be pushed another hex or can be hooked up (see 10.31), provided all the Infantry which has engaged in pushing during that Player Turn have sufficient MF left to expend in that hex. In all three cases, the Gun and its pushing Infantry become TI for the rest of that Player Turn when their pushing/hooking up has ended...


I think that the Haz Mov DRM is applied differently depending on the activity. If a unit remains vulnerable in a real-world sense, such as when engaged in Climbing or Fording, the Haz Mov DRM continues to apply, and not necessarily just for that Player Turn. However, once a unit has completed a "hazardous" task, it is no longer subject to the Haz Mov DRM.

Pushing a Gun is not a "process" in the sense that a Clearance Attempt is. While a Clearance Attempt requires until the CCPh to complete, Manhandling a Gun is accomplished (or not) solely during the Pushing unit's MPh.

This line of reasoning also makes sense when one considers that a unit engaged in Haz Mov immediately ceases to be subject to the Haz Mov DRM the moment it pins.

Not to make light of what Marti is saying, I think that whatever the ASLSK ruleset says (or does not say) is only relevant when playing ASLSK. Although units cannot voluntary break in ASLSK, no one is suggesting that A10.41 has been superseded by the ASLSK rule set.

That said, MMP did italicize "regardless of fire phase" in the ASLSK rule set. Whether this signals a change in MMP thinking (wrt the 2003 Q&A), or merely another departure from the ASLRB2 is anyone's guess. But bear in mind that there is no CS in ASLSK either. Indeed, in ASLSK, Hazardous Movement is defined as a "type of movement used by units manhandling a Gun."

As for the example in C11.3, perhaps it was intended to be DFF, not DFPh. It is not the best example, in any case. All things being equal, most players would have taken a DFF shot in the circumstances, not waited until the DFPh. However, if the Haz Mov DRM does apply regardless of phase, there would be less incentive to fire as DFF.

Quote:
C11.3 EX: A CE PzKpfw IVH fires during its DFPh at a 57mm AT Gun in its TCA which has just been pushed into a woods hex six hexes away. The Modified TH# is 8 and there is no DRM to the To Hit DR (+1 [Case P; Target Size] +1 [Case Q; TEM] -2 [Case O; Hazardous Movement] = 0 To Hit DRM).


Good question, thanks for raising it.
3 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Marc Hanna
United States
Eastbourne, England (Yankee go home!)
Florida
flag msg tools
badge
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
Chris Doary wrote:
A close read of C10.3 suggests that the application of the Haz Mov DRM is even more circumscribed than for CS. If, as the text in parenthesis below suggests, Pushing a Gun is equivalent to making a Manhandling DR, the Haz Mov DRM only applies when the Gun is actually being Pushed, i.e. during the MPh of the unit(s) Pushing the Gun, or its MPh.

Quote:
C10.3 PUSHING: ...Pushing a Gun (i.e., making a Manhandling DR) is Hazardous Movement, prevents Assault Movement, and cannot be attempted while carrying PP, or moving beneath a Wire/Panji counter, or attempting a Minimum Move. ...If the Final Manhandling DR is > the M#, neither the Gun nor any pushing unit(s) can be moved farther during that MPh but the pushing unit(s) receives a -1 Labor counter for use in its next attempt. If the Final Manhandling DR equals the M#, the Gun and pushing unit(s) can enter that hex but cannot be moved any farther during that MPh. If the Final Manhandling DR is < the M#, the Gun can enter that hex and either attempt to be pushed another hex or can be hooked up (see 10.31), provided all the Infantry which has engaged in pushing during that Player Turn have sufficient MF left to expend in that hex. In all three cases, the Gun and its pushing Infantry become TI for the rest of that Player Turn when their pushing/hooking up has ended...


I think that the Haz Mov DRM is applied differently depending on the activity. If a unit remains vulnerable in a real-world sense, such as when engaged in Climbing or Fording, the Haz Mov DRM continues to apply, and not necessarily just for that Player Turn. However, once a unit has completed a "hazardous" task, it is no longer subject to the Haz Mov DRM.

Pushing a Gun is not a "process" in the sense that a Clearance Attempt is. While a Clearance Attempt requires until the CCPh to complete, Manhandling a Gun is accomplished (or not) solely during the Pushing unit's MPh.

This line of reasoning also makes sense when one considers that a unit engaged in Haz Mov immediately ceases to be subject to the Haz Mov DRM the moment it pins.

Not to make light of what Marti is saying, I think that whatever the ASLSK ruleset says (or does not say) is only relevant when playing ASLSK. Although units cannot voluntary break in ASLSK, no one is suggesting that A10.41 has been superseded by the ASLSK rule set.

That said, MMP did italicize "regardless of fire phase" in the ASLSK rule set. Whether this signals a change in MMP thinking (wrt the 2003 Q&A), or merely another departure from the ASLRB2 is anyone's guess. But bear in mind that there is no CS in ASLSK either. Indeed, in ASLSK, Hazardous Movement is defined as a "type of movement used by units manhandling a Gun."

As for the example in C11.3, perhaps it was intended to be DFF, not DFPh. It is not the best example, in any case. All things being equal, most players would have taken a DFF shot in the circumstances, not waited until the DFPh. However, if the Haz Mov DRM does apply regardless of phase, there would be less incentive to fire as DFF.

Quote:
C11.3 EX: A CE PzKpfw IVH fires during its DFPh at a 57mm AT Gun in its TCA which has just been pushed into a woods hex six hexes away. The Modified TH# is 8 and there is no DRM to the To Hit DR (+1 [Case P; Target Size] +1 [Case Q; TEM] -2 [Case O; Hazardous Movement] = 0 To Hit DRM).


Good question, thanks for raising it.


Solid and interesting reasoning, but why ignore A4.62, which clearly delineates that pushing a gun results in hazardous movement (HM), hence application of the -2 DRM, regardless of fire phase? That much seems very clear. A4.62 does not stipulate that any of the listed activities are exempt in other fire phases...other than whence pinned. Now, pin status is removed at the end of the player turn, giving us a hint that HM DRM goes away only at the end of the player turn, not the end of a unit's MPh.

Is it your suggestion that E.2 be invoked, so that C10.3 supersedes A4.62? I am not inclined to agree, because A4.62 is specific about the list of activities as exceptional to HM.

The problem seems to be unclear language in reference to the sequence of play; the rulebook indicates 'engagement' in activity, also, 'having just pushed.'

Putting a labor status marker could indicated ongoing 'engagement' until it is pinned by fire. There is nothing in the rulebook exempting that interpretation because the rulebook does not define 'engagement' -- at least not anywhere I have found so far. Not that I have gone over it with a fine-tooth comb, but nothing in my ASOP (not sure which version it is other than 'rev') explains when the HM DRM goes away.

Most definitely agree that ASLSK rules must be held at bay --always -- when considering rules for the full game played using ASLRBv2.



1 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Nick Blank
United States
Unspecified
Ohio
flag msg tools
badge
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
Also note that pushing a gun makes the pushing unit TI, which implies an ongoing activity. I am inclined to think tho 2003 q&a is wrong and the rules example is correct.
 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
BattleSchool Managing Editor
Canada
Ottawa
Ontario
flag msg tools
mbmbmbmbmb
Honosbinda wrote:
Solid and interesting reasoning, but why ignore A4.62, which clearly delineates that pushing a gun results in hazardous movement (HM), hence application of the -2 DRM, regardless of fire phase? That much seems very clear. A4.62 does not stipulate that any of the listed activities are exempt in other fire phases...other than whence pinned. Now, pin status is removed at the end of the player turn, giving us a hint that HM DRM goes away only at the end of the player turn, not the end of a unit's MPh.


I agree that the HM DRM applies regardless of phase, but only while a unit is so engaged. Perhaps it is worth posting the entire Q&A in order to provide more context.

Quote:
A4.62, A23.7, B8.3, B21.41, B23.41, B24.7 & C10.3
Q. Do all Clearance attempts receive the Hazardous Movement penalty until the Clearance DR is made?
A. The appropriate Clearance attempts do.

Q. Does Pushing a Gun (C10.3), Setting a DC, or Crew exiting a Cellar (B23.41) receive the Hazardous Movement penalty only
during the applicable MPh?
A. Yes.

Q. Does the Hazardous Movement penalty apply to Sewer Movement and Fording as long as the unit is in that terrain?
A. Yes.


Honosbinda wrote:
Is it your suggestion that E.2 be invoked, so that C10.3 supersedes A4.62?


No. Unless a unit is actually "engaged" in a dangerous activity that warrants the application of the HM DRM, the DRM is NA.

Pushing a Gun, Setting a DC, and exiting a destroyed vehicle are special cases. The latter can occur during any phase in which the vehicle is destroyed (including falling into a cellar), hence the stipulation in A4.62 that the HM DRM can any apply "regardless of fire phase." (Note the wording. The rule does not specify that the HM DRM applies in any/all fire phases, only that it applies "to any attacks against units so engaged [in HM] regardless of fire phase.")

I also agree, for example, that a unit that Sets a DC is only subject to the HM DRM during its MPh.

Quote:
23.7 SET DEMOLITION: A DC which is neither Placed nor Thrown is considered a Set DC and has special advantages and requirements. A Set DC is one which has been Set prior to play by SSR, or which was Set and declared during play by an Infantry unit which spent all of its MF (using Hazardous Movement) to Set the DC in its Location during its MPh and made a dr ≤ its US# (subject to leadership drm by any leader assisting the unit to Set the DC) without being pinned or broken.


Honosbinda wrote:
The problem seems to be unclear language in reference to the sequence of play; the rulebook indicates 'engagement' in activity, also, 'having just pushed.'


Agreed. Some rule sections such as C10.3 could use a clarification. Others, already make it quite clear that the HM DRM only applies during a specific time period. Take, for instance, paratroops, which are only subject to this DRM during DFF, i.e. when they are considered to be Aerial targets.

Quote:
9.3 DEFENSIVE FIRST FIRE: After the Drift of all parachutes has been resolved, the DEFENDER may use Defensive First Fire and Subsequent First Fire vs them—even if they have drifted offboard (9.41). Aerial paratroops are subject to Hazardous Movement DRM, and can claim neither Height Advantage, TEM, concealment (9.11), nor any Hindrance other than LV/SMOKE (E.6). Hazardous Movement DRM even apply to an attack (only) on an Aerial SW in an attempt to destroy/malfunction it (A9.74) although such attacks will usually be caused by mistaken identity due to Random Selection.


Honosbinda wrote:
Putting a labor status marker could indicated ongoing 'engagement' until it is pinned by fire. There is nothing in the rulebook exempting that interpretation because the rulebook does not define 'engagement' -- at least not anywhere I have found so far. Not that I have gone over it with a fine-tooth comb, but nothing in my ASOP (not sure which version it is other than 'rev') explains when the HM DRM goes away.


Which brings us back to the Q&A above, and which helps delineate when HM ends wrt A23.7, B23.41*, and C10.3.

*FWIW, my version of B23.41 includes this info.

Quote:
23.41 CELLARS:...If the AFV rolls an Original 6 on the colored dr of the Bog Check DR, the AFV has fallen through the floor to the cellar and is removed. Should the AFV crew survive, it is automatically placed at ground level subject to Hazardous Movement for any subsequent fire during that phase (D5.6).
1 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Marc Hanna
United States
Eastbourne, England (Yankee go home!)
Florida
flag msg tools
badge
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
Chris Doary wrote:
Perhaps it is worth posting the entire Q&A in order to provide more context.

Quote:
A4.62, A23.7, B8.3, B21.41, B23.41, B24.7 & C10.3
Q. Do all Clearance attempts receive the Hazardous Movement penalty until the Clearance DR is made?
A. The appropriate Clearance attempts do.

Q. Does Pushing a Gun (C10.3), Setting a DC, or Crew exiting a Cellar (B23.41) receive the Hazardous Movement penalty only
during the applicable MPh?
A. Yes.

Q. Does the Hazardous Movement penalty apply to Sewer Movement and Fording as long as the unit is in that terrain?
A. Yes.



Okay, interesting stuff; thank you for doing that! So, I looked for this Q&A on the MMP errata page on the website, and could not locate it there; additionally, there seems to be some uncertainty if this is a final ruling on the GS forum.

Seriously, if it's been since 2003 for these answers, why hasn't it been added to the official errata -- for 12 years? That would be enough reason not to be satisfied that it's official enough, in fact that's probably why I ignored its relevancy when I commented in the first place.

Not to say that the ruling doesn't make sense as you have described how HM should function. You present a strong case for the variances in application.

1 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Klas Malmstrom
Sweden
flag msg tools
mbmbmbmb
Honosbinda wrote:
Okay, interesting stuff; thank you for doing that! So, I looked for this Q&A on the MMP errata page on the website, and could not locate it there; additionally, there seems to be some uncertainty if this is a final ruling on the GS forum.

It is an unofficial Q&A - I do not think MMP has ever published any Q&A for the 2nd Edition - only errata.


Quote:
Seriously, if it's been since 2003 for these answers, why hasn't it been added to the official errata -- for 12 years?

My guess is because no one has noticed the discrepancies between the Q&A and the C11.3 example (probably overlooked back in 2003 when the Q&A was answered as well).
1 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
BattleSchool Managing Editor
Canada
Ottawa
Ontario
flag msg tools
mbmbmbmbmb
nickgb wrote:
Also note that pushing a gun makes the pushing unit TI, which implies an ongoing activity. I am inclined to think tho 2003 q&a is wrong and the rules example is correct.


Section A4.8 certainly appears to put a damper on any suggestion that the HM DRM only applies while a unit is actually Pushing a Gun during the MPh.

However, a TI counter is used in other cases simply to prevent a unit from engaging in other activities (e.g. firing (even a Starshell), advancing, etc.). For example, a dozer is not Infantry, but it nevertheless earns a TI counter when clearing fortifications (G15.21).

But let's get back to A4.62. The rule states that neither FFNAM nor FFMO apply when the HM DRM applies.

Quote:
A4.62: ...Neither FFMO nor FFNAM apply to shots affected by Hazardous Movement;...


But what happens when a Gun is Pushed and hooked up during the same MPh?

Quote:
C10.31: A Gun can be pushed and then hooked up during the same MPh, but only if its pushing Infantry can still attempt to push that Gun another hex in that MPh (i.e., can attempt another Manhandling DR), and only if the vehicle has not yet exceeded the specified MP/MF expenditure for hooking up (10.11). No Manhandling DR is actually required for hooking up or unhooking.


Quote:
C10.11 HOOKING UP: A Stopped vehicle not in Bypass may hook up a Gun (if the vehicle's T# ≤ the Gun's M#) by spending half (FRU) of its MP/MF allotment [EXC: if the Gun's M# is circled (e.g., M6), the vehicle must expend two-thirds (FRU) of its MP/MF allotment] in that Gun's hex (in addition to any required MP/MF cost to enter the hex), provided a crew (as per 10.111) is on foot in that hex. This expenditure does not itself qualify that vehicle as a moving target, but does allow Defensive First Fire opportunities against it (that Gun shares its target status and is destroyed or missed depending on the fate of the vehicle). That Gun is then placed on top of that vehicle to indicate that it is in tow. Neither that Gun, its crew, nor that vehicle/its PRC can fire during that PFPh/MPh and all are TI for the rest of that Player Turn. That crew may also load into that towing vehicle at no extra MP/MF cost as it hooks up that Gun, but if it expends > half its MF allotment in pushing/entering that Gun's hex, that Gun cannot then be hooked up by that unit in that MPh. A non-QSU Gun (10.23) must first be limbered (10.21) before it can be hooked up. See 10.31 for pushing and hooking up a Gun in the same MPh.


Quote:
C10.111: A crew must be in Good Order and unpinned in order to (un)hook/(un)limber/push a Gun it possesses. See D5.43 for attack effects while (un)hooking. A HS (even if inherent in a squad) equals a crew for such purposes, but it takes five SMC to equal a crew for such purposes.


Quote:
D5.43 FFNAM: An Inherent crew Abandoning its vehicle as per 5.41 (as well as any other Personnel unit exiting/entering a vehicle) is considered Infantry and subject to FFNAM (until pinned) vs all attacks declared against it due to either its embarking/debarking MF expenditure or the vehicle's simultaneous MP/MF expenditure (6.4; 6.5). If also attempting to (un)hook a Gun while doing so, it succeeds in (un)hooking it only if it survives all such attacks unpinned and in Good Order. Likewise, Infantry attempting to enter a vehicle succeed only if they survive all such attacks unpinned and in Good Order.


Per A4.62, the FFNAM and HM DRM cannot apply concurrently. Therefore, I contend that the HM DRM applies while the unit is Pushing the Gun (i.e. when it makes its Manhandling DR), and that FFNAM applies during the hooking-up/loading process. If I am correct, then why would the HM DRM be "reinstated" following the hook-up/loading process?

EX: A BU halftrack is in a road hex ADJACENT to an Infantry crew (also on a road hex) with a ATG. During the MPh, the Infantry crew passes its Manhandling DR and Pushes the Gun into the same hex as the ht. The Infantry crew is subject to the HM DRM while Pushing. The opposing side declines to fire on this MF expenditure.

The Infantry crew then declares its intention to hook up the Gun and enter the ht. At this point, the Infantry crew is subject to FFNAM per D5.43. The opposing side declines to fire.

Once inside the ht, the Infantry crew becomes a BU Passenger, and is therefore largely immune to Small Arms fire [EXC: TPBF; HA; etc.]. But let's assume that the PRC of the ht were CE instead. Would the HM DRM continue to apply for the remainder of the turn? And if so, would only the Infantry crew be subject to this DRM, despite the fact that all PRC (and the AFV) are TI for the remainder of the turn?

IOW, I do not think that being TI, in and of itself, warrants continued vulnerability to the HM DRM. Rather, it is the continuation of a hazardous process that warrants this penalty.
1 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
BattleSchool Managing Editor
Canada
Ottawa
Ontario
flag msg tools
mbmbmbmbmb
klasmalmstrom wrote:
[q="Honosbinda"]Okay, interesting stuff; thank you for doing that! So, I looked for this Q&A on the MMP errata page on the website, and could not locate it there; additionally, there seems to be some uncertainty if this is a final ruling on the GS forum.


Quote:
Klas M: It is an unofficial Q&A - I do not think MMP has ever published any Q&A for the 2nd Edition - only errata.


I copied the Q&As from your ver. 8 (2011) GS Perry Sez pdf. Sorry, I didn't realize that they were not official.
 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Marc Hanna
United States
Eastbourne, England (Yankee go home!)
Florida
flag msg tools
badge
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
Chris Doary wrote:
klasmalmstrom wrote:
[q="Honosbinda"]Okay, interesting stuff; thank you for doing that! So, I looked for this Q&A on the MMP errata page on the website, and could not locate it there; additionally, there seems to be some uncertainty if this is a final ruling on the GS forum.


Quote:
Klas M: It is an unofficial Q&A - I do not think MMP has ever published any Q&A for the 2nd Edition - only errata.


I copied the Q&As from your ver. 8 (2011) GS Perry Sez pdf. Sorry, I didn't realize that they were not official.


No worries. I think these Q/A are the best we have to work with, until MMP has time to integrate them into official errata.

Thanks to you both for the clarifications as to how this has developed into what it is / where it stands. As mentioned before, good catch by the OP.
1 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Bruce Probst
Australia
Glen Waverley
VIC
flag msg tools
designer
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
Honosbinda wrote:
Solid and interesting reasoning, but why ignore A4.62, which clearly delineates that pushing a gun results in hazardous movement (HM), hence application of the -2 DRM, regardless of fire phase?


Repeating what I stated earlier: I believe that too much is being read into the "regardless of fire phase" phrase.

While you could interpret it as "the DRM applies for the entire turn" -- and in some particular (specified) cases, that is indeed so -- I think it is more correct to interpret it as "even though it's called 'Hazardous Movement', the DRM can apply in any fire phase, not just the MPh".

The simple example of the latter is the case of shooting at a vehicle during (say) the PFPh. You hit and eliminate it, but the crew survives. Further shots at the crew during that phase will get the HazMov DRM, even though the crew is not "moving" (in the usual ASL sense) and it's not the MPh.
2 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Bruce Probst
Australia
Glen Waverley
VIC
flag msg tools
designer
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
klasmalmstrom wrote:
It is an unofficial Q&A - I do not think MMP has ever published any Q&A for the 2nd Edition - only errata.


Not quite true. The BRT GG has several Q&A, which are certainly official. While most of the Q&A are specific to BRT (and thus are not tied to any edition of the rulebook) a few of them are actually specific to Chapters A, D and G. Thus they currently constitute the only Official Q&A, published by MMP, applicable to ASLRBv2 (to date).

For reference, the Q&A are:

A7.51 & D6.64 Can LVT (or other non-armored halftrack) Passengers fire group with vehicle-mounted weapons?
A. Yes. {BRTGG}

D6.65 Can Passenger leaders modify Passenger-only fire (from any vehicle type)? Can they modify Passenger/vehicle FG?
A. Yes. Yes, but only for Carriers/armored halftracks. {BRTGG}

D8.21 & G13.3 Is hinterland Soft Sand “soft” for Bog DRM purposes? Is beach “Hard Sand” “soft” for Bog DRM?
A. No. No. {BRTGG}

G13.46 & T2.3 Does the -1 Acquisition DRM for the first shot of a Gun apply to LVTs? Does it apply to 37* INF? Does it only apply to the 20AM scenario of BRT CG II and CG III? Does it only apply to shots against LVTs (and not other wading vehicles) in BRT?
A. Yes. No. Yes. Yes. {BRTGG}

(Those first two are actually very important IMO, as they help to clear up a very poorly worded section of rules in D6.6.)
1 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Marc Hanna
United States
Eastbourne, England (Yankee go home!)
Florida
flag msg tools
badge
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
BruceP wrote:
Honosbinda wrote:
Solid and interesting reasoning, but why ignore A4.62, which clearly delineates that pushing a gun results in hazardous movement (HM), hence application of the -2 DRM, regardless of fire phase?


Repeating what I stated earlier: I believe that too much is being read into the "regardless of fire phase" phrase.



Heh, well if it were not there in black and white, we wouldn't have to read and easily misinterpret it...

apparently what you say is indeed the case, if we are to trust the 2003 ruling found in an Internet forum rather than a more logical location...such as the official errata website page.

One wonders how many more of these semi-official rulings are out there. I do know there is a document floating around of collected Q/A over the years...
1 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Bruce Probst
Australia
Glen Waverley
VIC
flag msg tools
designer
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
Honosbinda wrote:
One wonders how many more of these semi-official rulings are out there.


How many? Hundreds, if not thousands. That's always been true. It didn't used to matter that much, when TAHGC still existed, because you got semi-regular updates in issues of the General and in the Annual (which, most of the time, actually was published annually).

Now we only get updates if they are phrased as actual errata, and a relatively small number of them at that, and published at very irregular intervals. In terms of changes to the rules I think that works well enough. In terms of helping players to interpret the rules ... not so much.

There are two huge problems with the unofficial Q&A system as it currently stands: firstly, it's pretty much impossible to stay across all of it, and many players have no idea how to access any of it. It totally relies on "word of mouth" to propagate.

Secondly, it's not always reliable. Sometimes the same question gets two different answers, depending on when it was asked. Very occasionally the answers are simply wrong, because something was missed at the time it was answered, or Perry simply changed his mind on a particular point. The Q&A don't get as much back-and-forth scrutiny as the errata does. Personally I always check every "unofficial" answer I see to determine if it matches my understanding of the rules (and heaven knows I can get things wrong! -- so that doesn't necessarily "prove" anything ...).

There's no "easy solution" for this. Currently ... you just do the best you can with whatever information you have. Ultimately it comes down to what the two players can agree on between them (or in the case of a tournament, the organiser acts as final arbiter, so at least the game stays consistent across all the participants).
3 
 Thumb up
0.01
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
John Brock
United States
Pennsylvania
flag msg tools
mbmbmbmbmb
Chris Doary wrote:

IOW, I do not think that being TI, in and of itself, warrants continued vulnerability to the HM DRM. Rather, it is the continuation of a hazardous process that warrants this penalty.

Good analysis, Chris. However, I don't quite agree with these conclusions, at least for pushing a Gun.

To me, any act that results in TI status implies an ongoing effort; that's why the unit is tied up for the rest of the turn. And thus, if the act is one that's vulnerable to Hazardous Movement, I would expect the HM to continue as long as the TI does. NRBH to be sure, but I think we've established that Setting a DC and CS (which I think we all agree at this point do not have long-term HM involvement) also don't result in placement of TI.

To me this also ties in well with what I think the Labor status is supposed to be emulating, but I realize that part is a disputable reality argument.

As for the argument about pushing and then loading a gun, I agree you've found an apparent contradiction there with "under HM for the rest of the player turn". But it would not be surprising if this rarely-performed combination of activities results in some rule inconsistencies that the designers never considered; I'd say those would be better dealt with by MMP making some actual rule changes, as opposed to just trying to figure out how to keep both existing rules whole by threading a fine needle.
1 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
1 , 2  Next »   | 
Front Page | Welcome | Contact | Privacy Policy | Terms of Service | Advertise | Support BGG | Feeds RSS
Geekdo, BoardGameGeek, the Geekdo logo, and the BoardGameGeek logo are trademarks of BoardGameGeek, LLC.