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Subject: China's gamification of citizen trustworthiness is sickening rss

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Mario Lanza
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China is using gamification -- a thing called Sesame Credit -- to keep its citizens in line. If this had been April I'd think someone was pulling my leg. This is one of the most evil things since Nazism.

It's sickening if the Chinese government is so dangerous that its citizens can't begin (or don't want) to fight this. And, sadly, the mere act of a Chinese citizen upvoting this post would end up hurting him- or herself.

If this ever comes to the US we'll all have to write our congresspersons.

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Xander Fulton
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Uhhh...wut you smoking?

Sesame Credit is just a scoring system for banks to determine how much credit could be offered to someone. Like a FICO score.
 
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Mike Stiles
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A little hyperbolic, no?

Insidious maybe, but it's certainly better than threatening to break lets.
 
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Mike Stiles
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XanderF wrote:
Uhhh...wut you smoking?

Sesame Credit is just a scoring system for banks to determine how much credit could be offered to someone. Like a FICO score.


It's an Extra Credit youtube video, so it might well be crap.
 
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Junior McSpiffy
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XanderF wrote:
Uhhh...wut you smoking?

Sesame Credit is just a scoring system for banks to determine how much credit could be offered to someone. Like a FICO score.


You mean it's already here?

Dear Congressman or Congresswoman, however you self-identify, I never thought this would happen to me. Can you tell me how to get, how to get some Sesame Credit?

Sincerely,
A self-identified constituent
 
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Mario Lanza
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windsagio wrote:
It's an Extra Credit youtube video, so it might well be crap.


Yup, but I searched it and found a number of other articles from more noteworthy authorities. I included the Extra Credit link because it was better presented and easier to watch.
 
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Mario Lanza
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windsagio wrote:
Insidious maybe, but it's certainly better than threatening to break lets.


The video addresses this. Breaking legs would eventually lead to rebellion. Insidious because this makes oppression more palatable.

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Damian
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I didn't watch the Youtube video, but I sought out some other sources to find out what this is. Here's a BBC article that explains it. It's definitely not like FICO, but I wouldn't describe it as "gamification" either. It just seem like a very culturally Chinese way to do things.
 
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Mike Stiles
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Also, it's just data collection and analytics made public.

I'd bet a lot that most countries do this on the sly to some level or another.
 
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Kelsey Rinella
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Devil's advocate: doesn't this make entrepreneurship way easier in a massive economy where no one can vouch for even a tiny proportion of others? Trustworthy individuals can actually use their virtue to make it seem worthwhile to do business with them, right? Given that many of our methods of calculating trustworthiness are terrifically biased, and probably at fault both for wage and wealth gaps and also financial crises, searching for something better sounds at least sort of promising.
 
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Derry Salewski
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Michael Carter
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Sesame Credit is fucking brilliant. Whoever came up with it deserves a Nobel prize for evil.
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Michael Carter
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XanderF wrote:
Uhhh...wut you smoking?

Sesame Credit is just a scoring system for banks to determine how much credit could be offered to someone. Like a FICO score.


Not even close.
 
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Boaty McBoatface
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I am not sure what things like traffic violations has to do with how trustworthy you are.

I can see this as not a wholly bad thing (after all how many of us would like to know how honest a lawyer or that bloke offering to sell us a hour is. But they way they are compiling the data seems iffy.

I would say a good idea very badly (when it is) implemented.
 
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Born To Lose, Live To Win
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slatersteven wrote:
I am not sure what things like traffic violations has to do with how trustworthy you are.


If you are willing to risk the lives of other drivers, your passengers and yourself for your own convenience, then you might be willing to risk ripping them off for your own convenience. Traffic violations, beyond a certain point, are a marker of someone who is selfish and disrespectful of others.
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Boaty McBoatface
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TheChin! wrote:
slatersteven wrote:
I am not sure what things like traffic violations has to do with how trustworthy you are.


If you are willing to risk the lives of other drivers, your passengers and yourself for your own convenience, then you might be willing to risk ripping them off for your own convenience. Traffic violations, beyond a certain point, are a marker of someone who is selfish and disrespectful of others.
I agree, but I see nothing in the article to indicate it was not going to be for even the most minor and trifling of deficiencies.

Yes a man who is double parked by be a selfish tosser, but " Undefined failure to comply with a traffic direction sign", if they cannot define what you did wrong should this even be a violation?
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Mario Lanza
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rinelk wrote:
Devil's advocate: doesn't this make entrepreneurship way easier in a massive economy where no one can vouch for even a tiny proportion of others? Trustworthy individuals can actually use their virtue to make it seem worthwhile to do business with them, right? Given that many of our methods of calculating trustworthiness are terrifically biased, and probably at fault both for wage and wealth gaps and also financial crises, searching for something better sounds at least sort of promising.


The problem with the entire approach is that there is no due process. The algorithm that determines how to measure people is decided by the government and it affects their livelihoods. If someone associates with someone the system deems unsavory, that individual gets dragged down too. So if my brother, for example, made some mistakes in his life, I have to disassociate myself from him (game the system) in order to boost my system rating. What of my brother? How should he feel about this?

The point is this is something that cannot be decided by a formula and certainly not by the government. It moves power from the people to the government (I understand that China is not the US). The government is to serve the people. The people should have no fear that the government can freely diminish their livelihoods.

Whenever a system of punishments and rewards is put into place, people learn to game the system. This has people gaming with their social standings. This offers one more reason to discriminate. "With a score like that you can't marry my daughter." or "I'm sorry, Sir, but we can't hire you." It encourages conformity. I can't believe we live in world that would allow such an atrocity as a system such as this.

That's the thing. What the Nazis did was so horrible, it was bound to mobilize the world to take a stand against them. Something like this is subtle enough to not cause action. It's the toad in the heated kettle.
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I dunno, while creepy and Orwellian, I'd still rank this below China's home registration system on the long list of "shitty things China does to its subjects".

This Maoist policy, which only grants people social benefits in the city of their birth, was originally intended to stop internal migration. Now, however China actively encourages people to move to coastal manufacturing centers to fuel its export economy, leaving these millions and millions of migrants without access to housing, medical care or even education for their children.
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Trey Chambers
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It does seem like subversive control.

Hamsters on a wheel.

I suspect we already have more subliminal but similar things at work at other technologically advanced countries.

The fact that it's hard to get a job at McDonald's once you have a misdemeanor conviction isn't totally dissimilar.
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J.D. Hall
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Meh. Behind the façade of a modernizing capitalist society, it's still a one-party dictatorship willing to slaughter thousands and thousands of students who want to have political freedom. The CCP's only concern about the Chinese people is that they might eventually overthrow them.
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Kelsey Rinella
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mlanza wrote:
rinelk wrote:
Devil's advocate: doesn't this make entrepreneurship way easier in a massive economy where no one can vouch for even a tiny proportion of others? Trustworthy individuals can actually use their virtue to make it seem worthwhile to do business with them, right? Given that many of our methods of calculating trustworthiness are terrifically biased, and probably at fault both for wage and wealth gaps and also financial crises, searching for something better sounds at least sort of promising.


The problem with the entire approach is that there is no due process. The algorithm that determines how to measure people is decided by the government and it affects their livelihoods. If someone associates with someone the system deems unsavory, that individual gets dragged down too. So if my brother, for example, made some mistakes in his life, I have to disassociate myself from him (game the system) in order to boost my system rating. What of my brother? How should he feel about this?

The point is this is something that cannot be decided by a formula and certainly not by the government. It moves power from the people to the government (I understand that China is not the US). The government is to serve the people. The people should have no fear that the government can freely diminish their livelihoods.

Whenever a system of punishments and rewards is put into place, people learn to game the system. This has people gaming with their social standings. This offers one more reason to discriminate. "With a score like that you can't marry my daughter." or "I'm sorry, Sir, but we can't hire you." It encourages conformity. I can't believe we live in world that would allow such an atrocity as a system such as this.

That's the thing. What the Nazis did was so horrible, it was bound to mobilize the world to take a stand against them. Something like this is subtle enough to not cause action. It's the toad in the heated kettle.


How is any of that any different under our current methods of developing trust?
 
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Born To Lose, Live To Win
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BGG should institute something similar. Take away the patron bar under everyone's avatar and place a Friend Of The Geek score instead. It can be the result of an algorithm that processes all your content contributed, thumbs, purchases at the geek store, patron donations, moderator warnings and so on. Then we can use that score for dick measuring contests when people claim to be more BGG than someone else.

Then, one of the 'blocked' options could be to filter out all users of a certain FotG score or less. Modeterators can use it for disputes also, people with a lower FotG score obviously don't care enough about BGG to give full consideration to. Eventually it will drive off the malcontents and we will be a Gaming Utopia. Heck, posting in RSP will automatically deduct points since if you are antisocial enough to traffic with the bottom dwellere you are obviously not Geek material.

Aldi Thread Crawler Bots take note: I anticipate a favorable bump in my rating for coming up with it.
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Born To Lose, Live To Win
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mlanza wrote:
China is using gamification -- a thing called Sesame Credit -- to keep its citizens in line. If this had been April I'd think someone was pulling my leg. This is one of the most evil things since Nazism.

It's sickening if the Chinese government is so dangerous that its citizens can't begin (or don't want) to fight this. And, sadly, the mere act of a Chinese citizen upvoting this post would end up hurting him- or herself.

If this ever comes to the US we'll all have to write our congresspersons.



They should totally come up with a Roy G. Biv clothing scheme to reflect status/clearance.

Just one step closer to a real RBE.
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Boaty McBoatface
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rinelk wrote:
mlanza wrote:
rinelk wrote:
Devil's advocate: doesn't this make entrepreneurship way easier in a massive economy where no one can vouch for even a tiny proportion of others? Trustworthy individuals can actually use their virtue to make it seem worthwhile to do business with them, right? Given that many of our methods of calculating trustworthiness are terrifically biased, and probably at fault both for wage and wealth gaps and also financial crises, searching for something better sounds at least sort of promising.


The problem with the entire approach is that there is no due process. The algorithm that determines how to measure people is decided by the government and it affects their livelihoods. If someone associates with someone the system deems unsavory, that individual gets dragged down too. So if my brother, for example, made some mistakes in his life, I have to disassociate myself from him (game the system) in order to boost my system rating. What of my brother? How should he feel about this?

The point is this is something that cannot be decided by a formula and certainly not by the government. It moves power from the people to the government (I understand that China is not the US). The government is to serve the people. The people should have no fear that the government can freely diminish their livelihoods.

Whenever a system of punishments and rewards is put into place, people learn to game the system. This has people gaming with their social standings. This offers one more reason to discriminate. "With a score like that you can't marry my daughter." or "I'm sorry, Sir, but we can't hire you." It encourages conformity. I can't believe we live in world that would allow such an atrocity as a system such as this.

That's the thing. What the Nazis did was so horrible, it was bound to mobilize the world to take a stand against them. Something like this is subtle enough to not cause action. It's the toad in the heated kettle.


How is any of that any different under our current methods of developing trust?
Government records.
 
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slatersteven wrote:

Government records.


Like this:
https://www.boardgamegeek.com/thread/1506298/cisa-and-stingr...
 
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