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Subject: Champions of Ascaloth- Fantasy Deckbuilding WIP rss

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Jack Moddle
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[UPDATED APRIL 14 WITH NEW RULE SET]

Hi all,

I've been working on this fantasy deck-building game for close to a year now. It's progressed a fair bit and the game design has changed as I've zeroed in on what I want the game to be. Now I am getting to the point where I am starting more intensive playtesting and rule proofing, which is where I could use your help.

The Rules file and PnP file are below.

Rules: https://drive.google.com/file/d/0Bw4ttJKM274dU1AxQ0ZEbHNLX1k...

PnP: https://drive.google.com/file/d/0Bw4ttJKM274dLTdxeUVveGh5Qk0...

I would really appreciate your feedback on how the rules read, if there are any glaring issues, and your thoughts on the game overall. I think the rules pack adequately describes the game, but the general idea is that each game is randomized with a set of Factions, each with different allies and enemies. Each player gets the same starting deck and a unique Champion that has one basic special ability. Players are trying to get the most Glory points. They do this by buying cards to build up their deck each turn, fighting enemies and claiming locations, and sabotaging each other. Each player also tries to accomplish a secret goal which award them extra Glory at game end.

The design goals of this game would be best described as:

1. Quick to set up. Set-up usually takes me about 5 minutes due to the Faction organization system (pull out x number of random decks, then shuffle them together). Compare this to Thunderstone (a similar game), which usually takes at least 20 minutes to set up and roughly the same to put away.
2. Quick to learn, hard to master. Players should be able to grasp the rules the very first time and not have unnecessary confusion (well-written and concisely explained rules will be key here). Casual gamers may have a slower intro but hopefully the learning curve will be minimal. Players should also be able to learn how best to play their cards, particularly in player vs. player interactions, without being able to break the game.
3. Engaging and fun. People should be drawn in by the concept and feel the desire to play again. I am hoping the randomness and game speed contribute to this. I also hope that the added mechanic around Action points will excite players more since they are directly competing.



A question I get frequently is: how is this different from other deck-builders? There are unique elements to this game that aren't seen in other deck-building games.

1. True player interaction. This isn't just a solitaire game where you buy stuff and build economy. You will frequently have the option to interfere with or help another player, and players can attack each other directly.

2. Random game and story. Each game is randomized very quickly and will include different Factions, Enemies, and Locations that will create a new game experience each time that the players will need to adapt to.

3. Potential for team play. There is a lot of potential for team play since players can help each other. I'm working on rules for a battle of good vs evil!

Anyway, enough of me- I would love to hear your thoughts!


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David Gregg
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Looks like a solid game. I'd like to see some full size cards to get a better feel for effects, iconography, etc.

While your setup sounds pretty quick, cleanup is still going to take a bit since you'll be sorting the cards back into their respective decks. Highly recommend making that step easy (icon, letter or number; preferably in corner).
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Jack Moddle
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Thanks for the comment! I will upload some cards samples. I've found take-down isn't too bad because all the cards are color coded so you just separate by color at the end.
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jackmoddle wrote:
the cards are color coded so you just separate by color at the end.

Perfect
 
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Here are some sample cards. Keep in mind that the images are placeholders from google to simulate the visual appeal I want; once I have balanced the cards I will get my own artwork done.

As you can see, each card has a number of different color-coded elements. #1 is the Faction/deck colors- each card with the same Faction color goes back into its own deck, and neutral cards like equipment and locations go together with their own color. This also highlights synergies, since cards of the same color often work well together. #2 is the cost (bottom right number). The cost tells you how much that card costs to buy or fight, and the color tells you the card's alignment (Monster=black/Hero=white/ Neutral=grey). If it's Neutral or the same color as your Champion you can buy it, otherwise you can fight it.
 
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Card text seems pretty straight forward, but the labels / icons are a bit over-kill. Example: that first card has:
- blademaster
- highborn
- warrior
- hero
- elf
- tree icon
- sword icon

Even games with insane card pools (see Magic: The Gathering) don't have this many keywords on their cards. I'm assuming that the tree icon = highborn and sword icon = warrior, in which case use only the icons or only the text. If you go with icons then reuse the icons in ability text just like you have on the Broadsword card.

I assume the shield is for combat and star is victory points, but what are the XP and yellow circles on the middle-right used for?
 
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s3rvant wrote:
Card text seems pretty straight forward, but the labels / icons are a bit over-kill. Example: that first card has:
- blademaster
- highborn
- warrior
- hero
- elf
- tree icon
- sword icon

Even games with insane card pools (see Magic: The Gathering) don't have this many keywords on their cards. I'm assuming that the tree icon = highborn and sword icon = warrior, in which case use only the icons or only the text. If you go with icons then reuse the icons in ability text just like you have on the Broadsword card.

I assume the shield is for combat and star is victory points, but what are the XP and yellow circles on the middle-right used for?


That's a really helpful comment and I certainly agree that there is room for simplification. In addition to the labeling/iconography you noted, the cards are also color coded which duplicates the function of the card type/faction label. I think there needs to be a point at which I sit down and re-think the card layout since this one has evolved 100 times since the beginning. I took my cues from Thunderstone, which has a lot of 'keyword' text on the cards, like "blunt", "basic", etc. While in Thunderstone this hypothetically allows for more slight twists on the rules (monster is immune to blunt weapons, etc), I think it actually takes away from ease of understanding because of all the text.

To answer your question, the XP and gold symbols indicate the rewards you get if you fight the card and win. I understand that makes for a lot of symbols on the card but the hero and monsters in this game are also more multi-functional cards because they work differently depending on your alignment.

Anyway, I would definitely consider your advice of losing any text that can be replaced by a symbol. I was concerned the symbols might be too small to be discernible within the text area, but maybe I just need to make better use of all the space that's currently being filled up by the image and all the symbols. I do think that I want to bring the shield down to the bottom of the card, beside the cost, so that it's that much easier to add up the card's cost when fighting it. Or alternatively, have the shield symbol indicate the card's full cost to fight, and put Combat points you get from expending the card in the text area.

Thanks for the tips and comments, keep em coming!

 
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Took a stab at the card layout:



Removed faction and class labels from top, moved class icon to left side just before card title and then changed faction icon into more of a water mark in the top right. Cut the title bar in half giving more room for art (or put back to original size and increase size of icons / card name).

Changed XP circle to match the gold one (improves font size and consistency), removed the periods in text effects (no need), increased star to same height as cost / shield, moved shield to beside cost and raised the height of the footer so that the bottom black bar was centered vertically with those bottom 3 icons.

jackmoddle wrote:
so that it's that much easier to add up the card's cost when fighting it. Or alternatively, have the shield symbol indicate the card's full cost to fight, and put Combat points you get from expending the card in the text area


If I'm understanding correctly the card's defense value is the shield plus its cost while attack value is only the shield? If that's the case then it's probably better to keep them as-is to avoid having to add yet another element to the card.
 
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Now I'm wishing I'd also either enlarged the XP / gold circles to match the size of the cost OR at least horizontally centered the smaller circles with the larger icons as they look kinda "off" as they are now...
 
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That's absolutely excellent! I will likely be using a lot of the elements you suggested, thanks for your great help. In playtesting last night we also identified the icon placement as making the math part difficult. I have another potential solution for that which I'll mock up and test out on you.
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jackmoddle wrote:
which I'll mock up and test out on you

Looking forward to it meeple
 
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Here's my first cut at the new card.



Couple things going on here:

1. Took your advice about cleaning up the top bar. I think it's great.
2. I simplified the math around buying/fighting the card. Now you look at the cost and you can buy it for the cost matching your alignment, in this case the 6 in white, or fight it for the cost not matching your alignment, which is the 8 in black (also the number is red to correspond to fighting).
3. Put the Combat symbol on the card under fight and separated the fight abilities. So the way this card would work is that you play it and get +1 Power. Then you can discard the card in a Fight on or off your turn and when you do, you can get one or both of those Fight abilities. They're separated because one is an Assault on another player and can be blocked by certain cards.
3. When you fight against a card in the line-up you no longer have to follow the Fight rules on it, so those rules on the card now only apply when you own it. At first I thought it was really neat having the cards have 2-way abilities that you can use and can be used against you. I could be convinced to change back to this, but it seemed to be slowing down the game. This was another idea that evolved from Thunderstone but the issue is this- it's supposed to add an element of strategy and excitement to which cards you decide to fight. However, what it actually does is make you do math in advance, calculating what will happen with each card. Which works in Thunderstone because you commit then fight, whereas here it just stalls people's turns. I'd much rather have players be able to put these negative effects on other players, which is a lot more fun.
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I'm proposing the following changes to the Champions deck-builder based on feedback from the forum and a playtest session this week and am hoping to get thoughts before I make the changes for next week.

ISSUE: slow turn play (buying and fighting cards from the line-up in particular) as a result of a few different elements with too much complexity.
SOLUTIONS: Fight/ buy costs shown on all cards, with more clarity as to which cards each player can buy/fight. Many cards simplified dramatically to reduce the amount of text to read/ decisions to make. When you fight a card, there are no longer Fight rules to follow- this removes a lot of bookkeeping/math. Combat scores are now more clearly activated by Fight abilities, and you don't need to up Combat/ Fortification on cards you fight because they're already included in the cost.

ISSUE: Objectives and the Escalation Deck were geared to punish losers, leading to runaway leader.
SOLUTION: Objectives no longer have negative rules when fought, just a consolidated cost. Each card in the Escalation Deck now has either an effect that helps all players equally (early game) or punishes leaders such as those with the most Objectives in play (later game). All the effects are much simpler, less text overall.

ISSUE: Losing Objectives was a huge VP swing.
SOLUTION: Objectives now worth only ~1 VP. Escalation cards are worth the majority of the VPs, in increasing amounts as the game goes on. When you capture an Objective, you get it and the put the current Escalation card aside in your victory pile. If someone steals the Objective from you, you still get to keep the Escalation card you received for taking it the first time, thus preserving most of your VPs.Objectives themselves also have lesser bonuses and are more consistently costed so they're not out of reach.

ISSUE: Complexity of Loot/XP and buying Skills was unnecessary and didn't add to the game.
SOLUTION: Removed Loot cards from the game. Combined Loot and XP into Gold, which is represented by gold cube tokens you collect. Gold can be spent on your turn to either buy a card for 1 less, or to buy Skills which upgrade your Champion. It can also be traded between players for helping them in various ways.This currency should help players be able to save up to buy, while not weighing down hands or the board with extra cards.

ISSUE: Not able to do anything sometimes with weak hands in early rounds. Hired Swords not useful to some.
SOLUTIONS: Updated starter cards and hand. Starting hand includes 7 x Battle (gives +1 Power), 3 x Adventure (gives +1 Gold, can be destroyed for another +1 Gold). Minimum power to buy in first 2 hands is 3, plus 2 Gold = 5, and up to 7 if you destroy both Adventure cards.As far as providing low-cost buys there are two options: 1. Keep Hired Swords as they are, or make them cost 3 with 2 Power (though not helpful if you have only 2 to spend), or 2. Allow you to buy 1 Gold for 2 Power (this is a poor exchange rate, but is better than buying nothing and is done for balance purposes)

ISSUE: Skills weren't used because they weren't useful enough to merit taking up a hand slot.
SOLUTIONS: Skills can be left right out of the game without changing anything, but I feel they add that 'one more thing' you can do on your turn to get you to your goal, which increases strategy. So I've reworked them for now. You can buy one Skill per turn for Gold. It goes face-down into your play area like other Remains in Play cards and is flipped up at the start of your next turn. Any time during any player's turn you can use a Skill, putting one or more copy of the same Skill card that you had in play onto your Champion (buying and using multiple copies of the same Skill improves its strength). You can't use a Skill if you already have one on your Champion. At the start of your next turn, you put all Skills on your Champion into your discard pile, where they will "recharge" for free by cycling through your deck and into your hand, then be played again. Or, you can at any time pay Gold to recharge Skills from your discard pile, which puts them back into play.

Any comments? It was a super helpful session and I'm pretty excited to get the new version out.
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Haven't gotten to playtest, so it's hard to comment on most of this, so here's some basic comments to the proposed changes:
- Clarity is good thumbsup
- Glad to see fix for runaway leader
- Good call on fixing the objective VP swing
- Funny how sometimes things need to be simplified to be "fun"
- Starting decks can be tricky, good luck tweaking

jackmoddle wrote:
ISSUE: Skills weren't used because they weren't useful enough to merit taking up a hand slot.
SOLUTIONS: Skills can be left right out of the game without changing anything, but I feel they add that 'one more thing' you can do on your turn to get you to your goal, which increases strategy. So I've reworked them for now. You can buy one Skill per turn for Gold. It goes face-down into your play area like other Remains in Play cards and is flipped up at the start of your next turn. Any time during any player's turn you can use a Skill, putting one or more copy of the same Skill card that you had in play onto your Champion (buying and using multiple copies of the same Skill improves its strength). You can't use a Skill if you already have one on your Champion. At the start of your next turn, you put all Skills on your Champion into your discard pile, where they will "recharge" for free by cycling through your deck and into your hand, then be played again. Or, you can at any time pay Gold to recharge Skills from your discard pile, which puts them back into play.


Keeping skills in play until used is a good way to handle them. How does cycling them through your deck workout if you have multiple copies to strengthen it? Do they all go into deck and the skill "re-strengthens" as you draw each one (which could suck if you lose an entire hand just to redraw a bunch of skill cards)?

Alternate idea: tap skills when used (can tap more than 90°!) and untap 90° at the start of your turn. When returned to proper vertical state the skill is available to be used again. Can even have some skills require a greater tap rotation when strengthened from owning multiple copies, e.g., 1 copy = tap 90°, 2-3 copies = tap 180°, 4+ copies = tap 270°.
 
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s3rvant wrote:

jackmoddle wrote:
ISSUE: Skills weren't used because they weren't useful enough to merit taking up a hand slot.
SOLUTIONS: Skills can be left right out of the game without changing anything, but I feel they add that 'one more thing' you can do on your turn to get you to your goal, which increases strategy. So I've reworked them for now. You can buy one Skill per turn for Gold. It goes face-down into your play area like other Remains in Play cards and is flipped up at the start of your next turn. Any time during any player's turn you can use a Skill, putting one or more copy of the same Skill card that you had in play onto your Champion (buying and using multiple copies of the same Skill improves its strength). You can't use a Skill if you already have one on your Champion. At the start of your next turn, you put all Skills on your Champion into your discard pile, where they will "recharge" for free by cycling through your deck and into your hand, then be played again. Or, you can at any time pay Gold to recharge Skills from your discard pile, which puts them back into play.


Keeping skills in play until used is a good way to handle them. How does cycling them through your deck workout if you have multiple copies to strengthen it? Do they all go into deck and the skill "re-strengthens" as you draw each one (which could suck if you lose an entire hand just to redraw a bunch of skill cards)?

Alternate idea: tap skills when used (can tap more than 90°!) and untap 90° at the start of your turn. When returned to proper vertical state the skill is available to be used again. Can even have some skills require a greater tap rotation when strengthened from owning multiple copies, e.g., 1 copy = tap 90°, 2-3 copies = tap 180°, 4+ copies = tap 270°.


Sorry, should've clarified. Each Skill has a recharge cost, and they're different based on the Skill (some are better than others). So for example, the Strategist Skill allows you to draw and play a card for each copy you use. You can recharge each copy for 2 gold, and any copies you don't recharge get discarded.

I really like the tap mechanism and it could be really helpful since it makes it so the 'recharge' time isn't variable depending on the deck. But, I'm stumped because the reason I have them cycling through the deck is to make it harder to run a light-deck strategy based on lots of Skills. It's part of a larger concern for me because I have eliminated the slowing mechanisms created by filling your deck with unwanted cards when you succeed at something (a la Thunderstone putting Monsters in or Dominion adding Gold). I am worried players will whittle their deck down to 10 good cards and cycle them through, then add Skills to the mix that don't need to be recharged. So I guess I'm saying it's a larger issue I was trying to approach and I'm looking for fixes.
 
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Ah, well then leaving it as you have may be the best fix.

If you wanted to experiment with tapping you could add an "aging" rule: each time you shuffle your discard pile to reform your deck you lose 1 skill card.

This deters a super thin deck as you'd be losing skill too fast to make good use of them. Not sure if losing just 1 skill hurts enough to fully deter; that'd be up for testing.
 
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s3rvant wrote:
Ah, well then leaving it as you have may be the best fix.

If you wanted to experiment with tapping you could add an "aging" rule: each time you shuffle your discard pile to reform your deck you lose 1 skill card.

This deters a super thin deck as you'd be losing skill too fast to make good use of them. Not sure if losing just 1 skill hurts enough to fully deter; that'd be up for testing.


So far it hasn't come up as an issue in playtesting. The reason is the lack of cards that effectively destroy cards. So I think I'll just ensure that I keep the number of card-destroying abilities in check. Then put a hard limit on the number of different Skills your Champ can learn, say 3 (you can still get multiples of the same), which would mean that eventually players are inclined to spend their Gold on buying more cards. I think I might consider implementing your 'tap' system though because:
1.I feel that with Skills recharging in the deck, players will spot that slimming their deck will yield better productivity. Best to avoid that.
2. It allows you to always be able to pay to recharge your Skills, as opposed to only be able to until they're shuffled back into your deck.
3. People seem to hate getting Skills in their hand, so that would be avoided.

The way I see it working is each Skill card has a recharge rate. If it's 2, you would rotate each Skill card you'd used 180°, then at the start of each turn rotate the top card 90° until it's upright. Then it's available again and next turn do the next card. Multiple Skills could be refreshing simultaneously in this way. Or you could pay 1 Gold for each 90° turn, thus allowing you to recharge faster. Some cheaper Skills, like Healing, could be a combined recharge (all copies recharge in 1 turn). Is that too complex?
 
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Untapping multiple copies might be a bit too much. Perhaps instead of tapping you add X gold to the card and remove 1 each turn until card is empty. Can alternatively pay off the stack of remaining gold to refresh it immediately. Cards with multiple copies could have an increased cost if you wanted.

Edit: Or to make paying gold to refresh feel a little more fluid you could do the reverse - each turn add a coin to the card until it reaches X at which point the skill is available to use. You can opt to add gold to the card from your personal stash to refill it faster.
 
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s3rvant wrote:
Untapping multiple copies might be a bit too much. Perhaps instead of tapping you add X gold to the card and remove 1 each turn until card is empty. Can alternatively pay off the stack of remaining gold to refresh it immediately. Cards with multiple copies could have an increased cost if you wanted.

Edit: Or to make paying gold to refresh feel a little more fluid you could do the reverse - each turn add a coin to the card until it reaches X at which point the skill is available to use. You can opt to add gold to the card from your personal stash to refill it faster.


I like the 2nd option. I am thinking of having two colours of those mini cubes, gold and green. At the start of turn, put a green cube on the top of each Skill card that's recharging. Once you meet the recharge number, it's back. You can add gold to cards to recharge them faster, but Skills with multiple copies will cost more since each card has to be spent separately. You could spend 2 Gold to fully recharge one level of a Skill, or spend 1 Gold on each to get it back one turn sooner.
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Couple issues with the PnP:

- There's no bottom margin in the PDF, so printers will clip off a good chunk of the cards. Good rule of thumb is at least 0.25" margin on each edge.

- Most PnP'ers do not bother cutting the rounded corners on cards since we're sleeving them anyways, so when the PnP file includes rounded corners the result is little white or black triangles on the corners.
 
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s3rvant wrote:
Couple issues with the PnP:

- There's no bottom margin in the PDF, so printers will clip off a good chunk of the cards. Good rule of thumb is at least 0.25" margin on each edge.

- Most PnP'ers do not bother cutting the rounded corners on cards since we're sleeving them anyways, so when the PnP file includes rounded corners the result is little white or black triangles on the corners.


Hmm, ok I can fix up the bottom margin. I made the mistake early on of making my cards rounded when I know now that even for card printing they want extra bleed and a square format would work better. But for now it would be just too much work to fix up, hopefully you can bear with the little corners until I get the cards re-designed sometime in the future.
 
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jackmoddle wrote:
Hmm, ok I can fix up the bottom margin. I made the mistake early on of making my cards rounded when I know now that even for card printing they want extra bleed and a square format would work better. But for now it would be just too much work to fix up, hopefully you can bear with the little corners until I get the cards re-designed sometime in the future.

If you can zip the pics and provide a link (dropbox, google drive, etc.) I'll fix corners and add bleed for you. It's really easy to apply simple changes like that to a batch of pics with Photoshop.
 
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I appreciate the offer and I would be happy to let you do it- the next time I update the Illustrator file it'll have to be redone though so you would only be fixing it for this version of the PnP file. When I print my prototypes, I use InDesign to add the bleed. Let me know if you still want me to zip the pics.

Is anyone considering printing and playing, just out of curiosity? I put the PnP file up as an afterthought but I would put more work into it if there are people interested. I would absolutely love the help but I understand that it's quite a few cards to print as well.
 
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Ah, gotcha, never mind then.

It is indeed a lot of cards, though I might still be printing them.
 
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I just saw your post yesterday and was actually planning on printing off the cards and trying out the solitaire play later today. Let me know if I should go ahead or wait on it for a bit.
 
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