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Subject: Skills that can be used against Combat Lock rss

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Mark Morrise
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I am playing Solo Trial number 3. The Combat Lock skill of Modula is a challenge for me.

The rules say, "Skills that can displace units may have a way of breaking Combat Lock." However, in Ricky Royal's play through video, he says that Machimoi's Toss ability cannot be used against Combat Lock. He does use Propel against Combat Lock.

My question is, which of the following skills can be used against Combat Lock?

Toss: Although it is usable during the Move phase, it does not actually involve any movement of the "opposing unit," which is what Combat Lock prohibits.

Shove: It does involve movement of the opposing unit but does not break Combat Lock (the opposing unit is still adjacent).

Swap: It does break Combat Lock, but it is initiated by an opposing unit not (yet) in Combat Lock.

Stun: Does it temporarily break Combat Lock?

Reposition: It allows a 1 hex move during the Attack phase. Does the fact that it occurs during the Attack phase (instead of the Move phase) make any difference as far as its availability to use against Combat Lock?

Although I probably won't use all of these skills in El Dorado, I thought I might as well cover every possibility I can think of in this post. Maybe you have thought of some that I haven't.

I think Hoplomachus: Origins is a fantastic game and love playing it solo. It is short enough that I can replay the same scenario several times different ways, to try out different strategies, and I really like that. The high quality of the components makes it that much more enjoyable.

EDIT: In all of my questions above, I was asking if the "locked" unit could use the skill against the unit with Combat Lock. Ibbo points out below that an "unlocked" unit adjacent to the locked unit could use Toss or Shove to break the lock, which is an excellent point.
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Kevin Erskine
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Okay my two cents worth.

Toss, swap, stun, reposition shouldn't work.

Shove should as you push the guy back into an opposition. You stay where you are and he moves back, so this should work.

Propel would work as well.
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Mark Morrise
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kerskine wrote:
Shove should as you push the guy back into an opposition. You stay where you are and he moves back, so this should work.

I thought that with Shove, you do not stay where you are, i.e., it means you move into the opposing unit's hex and move the opposing unit back one hex: "Move this unit 1 hex into opposing unit, that unit also moves back one hex." You could be right, and maybe I'm reading it wrong.
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Scribes
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My Tuppence:

Combat Lock (CL) - ...Opposing Units may no longer move...

Stun: '...A stunned unit ignores all stats & effects...' & 'Stunned beasts cannot lock...'
Note: The only almost-beast is the Sea Monster, however it's icon is a Star (City Gladiator), not a Paw Print (Beast) - and the AI attack is against a single unit. Lost City Beasts attack all adjacent, so there are no 'beasts' in Origins chip-set.

Propel 'Launch an adjacent friendly...'.

Toss: Sideways movement, as might happen in grapple, when a defender is pulled off-balance.

Shove: Active pushes, defender falls back, active follows, or is in grapple and is pulled along.

Swap: A 180 rotation, as a result of grapple, or feint & defensive circling.

Reposition: A Move during Attack Phase. This uses the word 'move', albeit out of phase, so would disallow this.

For several of these, I am thinking of the Reds holding Blues in CL. Blue Active using the skill may not break combat-lock, but the intention would be to free up another Blue unit.
Propel is the odd-one out, as this could be Red-on-Red to launch the Combat-Locking unit; away from multiple attackers for health reasons, or to CL another Blue unit for tactical reasons.

Edit:

Swap - Didn't think about this until reading Ibbo's reply; but if there were a chain of Red (CL) - Blue 1 - Blue 2; one of the Blues might use Swap changing the Blue unit Red is in CL with, ie Swap is in the same Gladiator Training Chapter as Propel & Toss.

Interested to get an Official CTG Ruling on this as I have definitely used Shove on the Sea Monster to mobilise a friendly; based on my plays - likely a Pelast (from LotS Exp) in order get round Gadir's Intimidate.
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They call me Mister...
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And the votes from the Irish jury are...

Toss: Yes, I would presume the locked unit could be tossed by another unit to break the lock or toss the locking unit but that would not break the lock as they remain adjacent.

Shove: EDIT I would say no as the first word is move and move is negated. Thinking about it I think the move wording here is just instructions in how to execute the ability so would say it could be used by another unit to break lock and could be used by the locked unit on the locking unit but wouldn't break lock. Bit of a leap this one, so not sure.

Swap: I would say it could break combat lock if swapping away from locking unit. Otherwise I would say it could still be used on a locking unit but obviously wouldn't break lock.

Stun: Yes I would agree this totally breaks combat lock temporarily.

Reposition: No as Scribes states, move is negated so no matter the phase could not happen.


Interesting question and to me all edge cases but there's my thoughts FWIW. Generally I'm terrified of combat lock and try to avoid it as much as possible.
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Mark Morrise
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Ibbo wrote:
Generally I'm terrified of combat lock and try to avoid it as much as possible.

I'd like to avoid it too! In Solo Trial 3, I'm not sure how to avoid being locked by Modula.

Thanks for your observations about an unlocked unit adjacent to the locked unit being able to use some of these skills to break the lock.
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markmorrise wrote:
In Solo Trial 3, I'm not sure how to avoid being locked by Modula.

In Trial 3, I accepted it was going to happen and tried to turn it into an advantage. Taking a leaf out of Ricky Royals review of Trial 5 (very similar to Trial 3) deploying a Tank between Modula & the Tribute means you Combat Lock Modula on your terms, not the AIs.
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Adam Carlson
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Greetings all.

I have the short and the long answers for you this time Please scroll down to read the explanation if you are interested in the interpretation side of the rulebook. Otherwise, here is the official ruling:

Short Answer:


Toss, Shove, Swap, Reposition, and even Mad Charge, to name a few, may ALL assist you in breaking free from the Combat Lock. You may even include the Combat Locking unit (ie. Modula) to participate in your usage of the Skill. All Skills may be used and will trump the Combat Lock, since a Skill is not a Move. Furthermore, the Stun effectively shuts down the Skill: Combat Lock, and adjacent units are no longer affected as long as unit is Stunned (removing the Stun reactivates the Combat Lock).


----------

Long Answer:

Thank you for creating and chiming in with your thoughts. It helps us to understand everyone's thought process. It certainly helps us determine a proper layout and description when writing the rulebook.

I have read through each post on this thread and I see where you guys are getting your interpretations...

Regarding Ricky Royal's video work, it is very, very good, but he may have flubbed (as we all do) on a couple rules. Oftentimes, different people have different interpretations of the same rules, many of which do not matter as long as all players at the table are in agreement.

With this in mind, Chip Theory Games will explain the intended interpretation with the text that was provided in the rulebook. I will use the Origins rulebook for these references...

Top of page 5:
To move a Gladiator, check its Move Range, and then simply slide it along with all of its health chips. All of your eligible Gladiators may move during this phase.


'Move' is generally defined as moving during the Movement Phase. Yes, there are times that this word was used as a general describing of what actually happens with the chips themselves within some of the Skill descriptions. To the best of my knowledge, the entire rulebook, with the exception of the Skill lists, uses 'Move' as in the action within the Movement Phase. The Skill lists often require us to further explain the actual handling of the chips, as opposed to a 'unit' or a 'tactic'.

Left side of page 12:
Combat Lock: Opposing units may no longer move for as long as they are adjacent to this unit. Opposing units attempting to pass by this unit must stop the instant they are adjacent. Skills that can displace units may have a way of breaking Combat Lock.


With the term 'Move' figured out, Combat Lock does prohibit adjacent opposing units from using the movement phase altogether. Rather than reducing its Move Range to '0', it actually makes it 'immovable'. Please also notice that the exception to the rule has been included as the final paragraph in the Combat Lock skill definition regarding displacement skills.

Top of page 12:
Skills Reference List: Abilities, Alt Attacks, Innates


Abilities, Special Attacks (B&M Add-on), Alt Attacks, and Innates are all Skills. With this in mind, Skills provide the exception to the Combat Lock movement rule... specifically all the Skills that actually require the unit to be moved, or displaced. All Skills will trump the Combat Lock.
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Mark Morrise
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Thanks, Adam! I appreciate your taking time to answer my questions and clarify Combat Lock for all of us.

When you say that Combat Lock makes a unit is "immovable," in the context of your entire answer I understand you to mean that the unit subject to Combat Lock simply cannot "Move" as it ordinarily would during the Move phase.

With that in mind along with the distinction between moving a Unit during the Move phase versus "displacing" a unit using Skills, it makes sense to me. Thank you also for pointing out the relevant rules in the rule book.

As I said in my post above, I think Hoplomachus: Origins is a fantastic game, and I really enjoy being able to replay different strategies. This will definitely help me with Solo Trial No. 3.
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Mark Morrise
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Dewdundency wrote:
Regarding Ricky Royal's video work, it is very, very good, but he may have flubbed (as we all do) on a couple rules.

I totally agree that Ricky's video work is excellent. No criticism was meant of his play through video, which I greatly appreciate. I was just trying to explain the context of my question.
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They call me Mister...
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Great to get clarification on this as we can see we've interpreted things very slightly differently.


markmorrise wrote:
kerskine wrote:
Shove should as you push the guy back into an opposition. You stay where you are and he moves back, so this should work.

I thought that with Shove, you do not stay where you are, i.e., it means you move into the opposing unit's hex and move the opposing unit back one hex: "Move this unit 1 hex into opposing unit, that unit also moves back one hex." You could be right, and maybe I'm reading it wrong.


I meant to mention that I also read Shove as that the shoving unit follows with the unit that is being shoved, i.e. both units move 1 hex.
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Adam Carlson
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Ibbo wrote:

I meant to mention that I also read Shove as that the shoving unit follows with the unit that is being shoved, i.e. both units move 1 hex.


This is correct. Shoving and shoved unit each move one hex into the same direction.
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Hal Martin
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Great, thanks for the clarity, Adam. The abilities section really should have a rework of clarity somewhere, be it in the files section or on Chip Theory website. Questions come up about them and could be avoided with a quick rework I would think.
 
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