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Subject: "Heimdall's Watch" + "Tyr's Prowess" issue rss

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Andon Donev
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During our last playthrough we had an issue with this combination of Clan upgrade and battle card.

Basically the situation goes like this:

Player 1 have "Tyr's Prowess" clan upgrade (If you win a battle, you may keep any of your revealed cards, paying 1 rage each).
He initiates battle with few other players involved.

Everyone plays cards for the battle and player 1 reveals "Heimdall's Watch" (Discard all revealed cards. Gain glory equal to the total +STR revealed. Then Play new cards).

Player 1 gain the glory and after that new cards are played. With the second card this same player wins the battle.


So the question is: according to "Tyr's Prowess", is player 1 allowed to get the "Heimdall's Watch" card back?
 
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Gert Meyer
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I would say no. Tyr's Prowess does not bring back a discarded card. It just allows you to pay 1 Rage to avoid discarding a card you would normally have to if you won. So cards discarded through Heimdall's Watch (including itself) are dead and gone.
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Iavor Ianakiev
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whiplash159 wrote:
... is player 1 allowed to get the "Heimdall's Watch" card back?

No!
 
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Galen Iliev
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Although I do agree with the interpretation and would prefer to play it that way... Cards doesn't " allows you to pay 1 Rage to avoid discarding" it allows you to "keep revealed cards".
 
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Gert Meyer
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zippystar wrote:
Although I do agree with the interpretation and would prefer to play it that way... Cards doesn't " allows you to pay 1 Rage to avoid discarding" it allows you to "keep revealed cards".


But Heimdall's Watch is not a revealed card. It is a discarded card. The only "revealed" cards in play when the battle is resolved and Tyr's Prowess kicks in are the ones that are played after the discard triggered by Heimdall's Watch.
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Galen Iliev
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As I said, that is the way we would play it as it seems more balanced.
But that is a bit of twisting the rules. The card is considered revealed during the battle and Prowess states you can return "cardS".
I would assume that its more for the "play after battle" cards but still...

That is you take the text literally

Also from other forums' issues
"By Using Tyr's Prowess you are paying rage to grab cards that were discarded AFTER the battle."

This type of interpretation is based vs Loki's Poison where the loser picks up the victor's card.

I am not sure whether I agree with this though...
 
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Colin Thomas
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gert74 wrote:
zippystar wrote:
Although I do agree with the interpretation and would prefer to play it that way... Cards doesn't " allows you to pay 1 Rage to avoid discarding" it allows you to "keep revealed cards".


But Heimdall's Watch is not a revealed card. It is a discarded card. The only "revealed" cards in play when the battle is resolved and Tyr's Prowess kicks in are the ones that are played after the discard triggered by Heimdall's Watch.


Agree with this. The key for me is that at the time Heimdall's Watch (and other cards) are discarded, there is no winner yet. Tyr's Prowess requires you to have won the battle. By the time you have won the battle at resolution, Heimdall's watch is no longer a revealed (or played after battle) card, it is gone in the discard pile. The game doesn't retain memory of how a card was used once it is in the discard pile.
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Todd Parker
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I agree. After winning a battle in age 3, could you dig through the age 2 discard pile to take back a quest card that you "revealed" in the quest phase last age, take it back, and play it again?
Once its discarded, its gone.
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Robert Crooks
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The key word here is WIN. When HW is played the victor has not been decided. Therefore, the upgrade cards ability is not in play.
 
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Thaddeus MacTaggart
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paedia wrote:
The key for me is that at the time Heimdall's Watch (and other cards) are discarded, there is no winner yet. Tyr's Prowess requires you to have won the battle. By the time you have won the battle at resolution, Heimdall's watch is no longer a revealed (or played after battle) card, it is gone in the discard pile. The game doesn't retain memory of how a card was used once it is in the discard pile.

Exactly this!!!
 
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Atul Deshpande
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Quote:
The key for me is that at the time Heimdall's Watch (and other cards) are discarded, there is no winner yet. Tyr's Prowess requires you to have won the battle. By the time you have won the battle at resolution, Heimdall's watch is no longer a revealed (or played after battle) card, it is gone in the discard pile. The game doesn't retain memory of how a card was used once it is in the discard pile.


But then the phrasing on the card doesn't make any sense:
"... any of your revealed cards."
For most battles, apart from maybe Heimdall's foresight, you would have access to only the last revealed card, and not any of your cards.
 
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Atul Deshpande
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On another point, does Tyr's Prowess prevent the Loki's poison (steal the winner's card)?
 
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Thaddeus MacTaggart
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thisisenfield wrote:
Quote:
The key for me is that at the time Heimdall's Watch (and other cards) are discarded, there is no winner yet. Tyr's Prowess requires you to have won the battle. By the time you have won the battle at resolution, Heimdall's watch is no longer a revealed (or played after battle) card, it is gone in the discard pile. The game doesn't retain memory of how a card was used once it is in the discard pile.


But then the phrasing on the card doesn't make any sense:
"... any of your revealed cards."
For most battles, apart from maybe Heimdall's foresight, you would have access to only the last revealed card, and not any of your cards.

Using that logic you should also be able to get revealed card of another age back. Or from a battle 5 turns ago.

I think by "Any card" it is indicated that you can't just get back your first revealed card but also the extra Heimdall's Eye/Gaze cards that you can play in addition to the "normal" battle cards.
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Andon Donev
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thisisenfield wrote:
On another point, does Tyr's Prowess prevent the Loki's poison (steal the winner's card)?

This issue is discussed in few other threads: here and here.
 
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