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Subject: Rebel base and the value of defending in space rss

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Henry Coleman
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In the examples we’ve seen, the rebel player has had a number of ships in the rebel base system. Given that space and ground combat happen at the same time, and that in order to win the Imperials only need to win a ground combat against the rebel base, I’m wondering what the value is of placing ships at the rebel base? It seems to me that the rebel player would be better off focusing entirely on ground forces.

I suppose if the base gets revealed by a small imperial expeditionary force the rebels might repel that first attack and then be able to counter attack in the next turn.

Maybe there are cards that allows the rebels to move ships from the base to other systems?
 
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Conan Meriadoc
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My guess is that you want to avoid a death star coming into the system and blowing your planet from space, without giving you a chance for ground combat.

It would make sense to have missions that allow you to quickly move ships from the base into a given sector, though we won't know for sure until we see such a card.
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Spyros Gkiouzepas
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Also you have the ability to relocate your base, if you survive the first round and have enough spaceships to move it around, so there is that off course.
 
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Rob Treasure
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Dystopian wrote:
My guess is that you want to avoid a death star coming into the system and blowing your planet from space ......


That seems like a pretty sound assumption to me
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Dennis Schwarz
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My guess is that there might be space based tactics cards or other stuff that affect the ground battle from space, so that you need to fight in space, too, to not risk the Empire to gain the high ground and bombard the ground (it would have been cool to have bombardement rules for this, that the ground battle could be affected as long as there IS a ground battle and as long as there is no more opposition of one side in space).

Another unrelated question for me would be if turtling in the Rebel base system would be a viable (albeit boring) strategy for the Rebels (boosting ground as much as possible to enhance your chances in the ultimate final ground assault)...

Just move everything you build on the Rebel base and just use a few select systems for building.
The problem, I guess, will be to maintain those few systems throughout the game and to keep the Empire at bay just enough to be able to build that stuff .

My guess is that they will have tested this strategy I think that the Death Star(s) will pose enough of a threat, so that the Rebels just cannot ignore them and HAVE to do something about them (with space units) to even be able to fight in that final ground assault.
 
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Greeek geek wrote:
Also you have the ability to relocate your base, if you survive the first round and have enough spaceships to move it around, so there is that off course.


I'm fairly sure retreating from combat at the base isn't the same as moving the base (which is a mission).

If you retreat, I would have thought you immeadiately lose the game.
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Conan Meriadoc
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eldaec wrote:
I'm fairly sure retreating from combat at the base isn't the same as moving the base (which is a mission).


The mission card doesn't mention that you need space transport when relocating your base, which seems a bit weird thematically, but I'm okay with that mechanics-wise. I'll just assume you're hiring smugglers to transport your troops, and taking necessary steps to make sure they can't talk afterwards.
 
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Yiannis Hadjikyriakou
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Greeek geek wrote:
Also you have the ability to relocate your base, if you survive the first round and have enough spaceships to move it around, so there is that off course.


I think moving the base and moving the ground units stationed on the base are different things. The Rapid Redeployment (or whatever it is called) standard mission lets you draw cards to set up a new base as its second option and I don't believe you need any transport (they are built into the card). Its first option lets you move units to a hidden base IIRC. That means you'd play it after you repel the initial attack, to get 4-8 cards to find a suitable site, then play it again the next turn to send units to the new base to defend it.

I'm assuming you could also move units to the planet manually, which would kind of give things away unless you wanted to double-bluff (the Sicilian strikes again!). You might also be lucky (or not, depending) and draw a planet you are already defending.
 
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Dennis Schwarz
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eldaec wrote:
Greeek geek wrote:
Also you have the ability to relocate your base, if you survive the first round and have enough spaceships to move it around, so there is that off course.


I'm fairly sure retreating from combat at the base isn't the same as moving the base (which is a mission).

If you retreat, I would have thought you immeadiately lose the game.

You are right that a mission cannot interrupt a running combat as far as we know and you probably would have lost if you retreat (or maybe not - maybe the Empire needs to take the surrounding systems before, so that you cannot retreat - making it a lot more difficult for the Empire to win).

It will be interesting to see, if there will still be a way to recreate the situation on Hoth. Maybe there is a tactics or action card that pauses the battle in the System to be able to do a mission or something.
 
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Allan Clements
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The card which relocates the base doesn't actually move the base until the end of the phase, so the empire has the entire turn to move in and fire the Death Star. So you simply can't let that happen.
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In an earlier preview it was mentioned that for the rebel player the logistics icon is used to move forces to and from the rebel base.

You can be certain that there will be Alliance missions that allow you to place (space) units from the base to locations on the board. Perhaps even any systems free of Imperial presence. Imagine what could happen if important Imperial systems like Coruscant or Corellia are almost undefended, and out of seemingly nowhere you suddenly place a Mon Calamari cruiser with fighters and ground troops in an adjacent system?

Your base is not just the flag the Empire needs to capture, it is your stronghold from which you launch attacks at the Empire. And for this you need space units too.

A Mon Calamari cruiser on the board is a tempting target for an Imperial armada. A cruiser in the rebel base is an ace-in-the-hole and Imperial headache.

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Peter O
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When I first read your title, I actually thought you would be talking about defending in depth. So multiple lines of defense each intended to cause casualties before withdrawing. In real warfare, done right this means a smaller force is creating many more casualties to the enemy. In this game (and many others without a defenders bonus) I don't see how it's possible.

However, trading land for time is. Fortify a corner and so long as no one battle cripples you, make it hard for them to advance. In this case Space forces are critical to proactively destroy transports limiting the number of ground troops that can attack any one world.

Also as I just read in another thread, you can pin troops in place if they have a leader in the system where the troops are. So some tricky mission playing can delay the advance.
 
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Chris J Davis
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Dystopian wrote:
eldaec wrote:
I'm fairly sure retreating from combat at the base isn't the same as moving the base (which is a mission).


The mission card doesn't mention that you need space transport when relocating your base, which seems a bit weird thematically, but I'm okay with that mechanics-wise. I'll just assume you're hiring smugglers to transport your troops, and taking necessary steps to make sure they can't talk afterwards.


Nothing says that when you move the base you also get to move the units.
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bleached_lizard wrote:
Dystopian wrote:
eldaec wrote:
I'm fairly sure retreating from combat at the base isn't the same as moving the base (which is a mission).


The mission card doesn't mention that you need space transport when relocating your base, which seems a bit weird thematically, but I'm okay with that mechanics-wise. I'll just assume you're hiring smugglers to transport your troops, and taking necessary steps to make sure they can't talk afterwards.


Nothing says that when you move the base you also get to move the units.


Curiously, it also doesn't say your base needs to be revealed in order to be relocated. So barring new information, it seems you can relocate your base whenever you like. So there is no apparent need for significant defenses, just move the base every time a Star Destroyer gets close.

This opens up an awkward tactic as well, assuming you do not (have to) move your units with your base: if you build a fighter and trooper at your base every even turn, and move your base every odd turn, you can make units appear across the board.

That being said, my gut feeling tells me that an unrevealed Rebel base needs to stay where it is.



 
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Conan Meriadoc
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bleached_lizard wrote:
Dystopian wrote:
eldaec wrote:
I'm fairly sure retreating from combat at the base isn't the same as moving the base (which is a mission).


The mission card doesn't mention that you need space transport when relocating your base, which seems a bit weird thematically, but I'm okay with that mechanics-wise. I'll just assume you're hiring smugglers to transport your troops, and taking necessary steps to make sure they can't talk afterwards.


Nothing says that when you move the base you also get to move the units.


True. I could see two possible outcomes.

- Since you resolve in the Rebel Base space (not its planet), the units there aren't "moved", they just happen to be relocated when the Rebel player selects a new probe card. Units already deployed on the planet stay where they are.
- The Rebel player reveals their current location, empties the base onto that planet, and selects the new base location. The new base starts empty, they'll have to use Rapid Mobilization several times on subsequent turns to replenish the base, which is quite cinematic and Hoth-like.

Both would make sense, the "Establish a new rebel base" sentence could be interpreted either way, depending on the necessary steps.
 
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Allan Clements
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I expect you also need to reveal and give the old base card to the Empire. If you move every turn, you are just speeding up the Empires knowledge of where you can be.

I am pretty certain you can move the base whether it is revealed or not.

If you move it every time the Empire barely goes near you, you will lose pretty quickly from a bad choice of locations which are adjacent already.

I suspect that if you draw locations and all are already Imperial, moving of the base fails, but you are now revealed. So the Empire will try to control the locations left in the deck to prevent you from moving as the deck dwindles.
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Dave Weiss
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Neva Kee wrote:

Another unrelated question for me would be if turtling in the Rebel base system would be a viable (albeit boring) strategy for the Rebels (boosting ground as much as possible to enhance your chances in the ultimate final ground assault)...

Just move everything you build on the Rebel base and just use a few select systems for building.
The problem, I guess, will be to maintain those few systems throughout the game and to keep the Empire at bay just enough to be able to build that stuff .

My guess is that they will have tested this strategy I think that the Death Star(s) will pose enough of a threat, so that the Rebels just cannot ignore them and HAVE to do something about them (with space units) to even be able to fight in that final ground assault.


Turtling probably wouldn't work well at all. I believe the Imps have a card that allows them extra probes, and those probed are based on the amount of units at the hidden base. Stacking a lot there will make it very easy for the Imps to find you. Beyond that, you wouldn't have any forces to defend your planets, acquire new planets, attack Imp bases. You'd lose all your support and the Imps would simply subjugate the entire board looking for you.
On top of that, you probably wouldn't be able to complete many if any goals, so your turn limit would stick to 14 giving the Empire as much time as possible to find you.
With your supply lines cut off, the 1 trooper and 1 x-wing per turn probably wouldn't end up being enough of a force to defend you when the Imps control the entire board.
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Davis Stringer
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Someone else mentioned defending in depth. That's what I was thinking at first as well. But, from what little we know, it seems that really isn't such a concept in this game. Landing seems to be automatic. There doesn't seem to be a need to win the "naval" battle for the "transports" can "unload" as we see in so many other games. There is mention of not being able to retreat ground pounders if the space battle has eliminated too much transport capability. On the surface, yeah, it would seem air/space defense would be secondary to ground troops, except for that there Space Station, which apparently is not a moon.

Slight change of subject...

Although, it could be fiddly, does anyone else think that TIE fighters, X-Wings, and Y-Wings ought to be committable to either space or ground battle?
 
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Conan Meriadoc
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stevuscaticus wrote:

Although, it could be fiddly, does anyone else think that TIE fighters, X-Wings, and Y-Wings ought to be committable to either space or ground battle?


We haven't seen yet a lot of the tactics cards, but there may well be a few that allow aerial support for ground forces. I wouldn't dismiss that as "not feasible" within the game mechanics yet.
 
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Artur Biesiadowski
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stevuscaticus wrote:

Although, it could be fiddly, does anyone else think that TIE fighters, X-Wings, and Y-Wings ought to be committable to either space or ground battle?


Just keeping to SW 4-6 (forget about SW 7), was there any case where they had interacted with ground forces in any way? On Hoth, these were airspeeders, not A-wings or X-wings which were attackings AT-ATs.

I suppose that allowing for more generic 'orbital bombardment' with any type of starships might be more elegant than specifically making converting space fighters into from light space force into heavy ground force (with all the troubles of separate HP scales etc).
 
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Dave Weiss
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Having air units attack ground units is likely to break a lot of the balance of the game.
An X-wing has black HP, so it would be vulnerable to stormtroopers, but not AT-ATs, unlike snowspeeders. X-wings are also easier to build than snowspeeders. Y-wings would be a cheap way to take out AT-STs without much vulnerability to them. X-wings would also be more effective against stormtroopers than against AT-ATs. Hitting stormtroopers with blasters would be way more difficult than shooting AT-ATs with torpedoes.

This sort of action is really only seen in Ep7, and even though you have Ties and X-wings at near ground levels, really only Poe is making any sort of accurate shots at ground units.

I doubt we'll see anything outside of some tactic cards that give you ability to support the other forces.
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Scott Forster
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I'm wondering if -- once revealed -- you need to meet normal build requirements to build units at the rebel base, which would be prevented by a blockade.
 
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Robert P
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kmanweiss wrote:
Having air units attack ground units is likely to break a lot of the balance of the game.
An X-wing has black HP, so it would be vulnerable to stormtroopers, but not AT-ATs, unlike snowspeeders. X-wings are also easier to build than snowspeeders. Y-wings would be a cheap way to take out AT-STs without much vulnerability to them.


AT-STs and AT-ATs also use a black die to attack. So even IF space units could attack ground units, they would still be vulnerable.
 
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Davis Stringer
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abies wrote:
stevuscaticus wrote:

Although, it could be fiddly, does anyone else think that TIE fighters, X-Wings, and Y-Wings ought to be committable to either space or ground battle?


Just keeping to SW 4-6 (forget about SW 7), was there any case where they had interacted with ground forces in any way? On Hoth, these were airspeeders, not A-wings or X-wings which were attackings AT-ATs.

I suppose that allowing for more generic 'orbital bombardment' with any type of starships might be more elegant than specifically making converting space fighters into from light space force into heavy ground force (with all the troubles of separate HP scales etc).

Not specific from the movies IIRC, however, there is from other sources, such as Rogue Squadron material is there not? That's assuming it's still canon. I have trouble keeping up with it these days. They really "blew up" a lot of good material, but that's another subject.

I would say thematically, sure small spacecraft (aircraft) should be able to participate in planetary battles. But, as kmanweiss said, it could unbalance things, though I was thinking for a different reason. The Rebels' fighters are much more capable of operating independently due to their hyperdrives. So, if not already built into the balance, house ruling it could upset things, especially in a final desperate defense of the Rebel Base from conventional attack.

Apparently then, the main purpose of X-Wings and TIEs is to simply shoot each other down, which is uninspiring if that's in effect all they're for beyond an occasional multipurpose hit on a capital ship (Although the Rebels use them of course to attack the Death Star...so there's that). So, with that said, I hope there are some cards that allow some sort of temporary ground support capability, even if abstracted, because the basic combat seems to point to the idea that space and ground battles have little affect on the other beyond destruction of transport capability for retreat.
 
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Mark Fielding
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I think the answer is transport space. Ground troops and tie fighters need to be transported to the battle. Tie fighters are also the best counter to x-wings and y-wings, so a decent number of rebel fighters in orbit has the effect of reducing the amount of ground forces you have to face by forcing the empire to bring tie fighters to deal with your orbital defence.
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