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Subject: Are Wargamers Better To Their Community On BGG?? rss

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Zigi Hogan
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The title I chose is not the best I could have chosen; what I am specifically referring to are the amount of thumbs on BGG posts on wargame specific posts versus Euro specific posts.

Being one of faithful BGG Gronards and actively participating in forums, Geeklists, etc. both as an originator and as a hanger on I regularly thumb posts that I either like, think make a good point, participate in or, even if I don't like/agree with what is being said, I thumb for starting a conversation.

I have posted some pretty insubstantial forum posts (you're reading one now!) about things I either wanted answers to or just wanted to make a statement about and I can say that some of the wargamers who visited a forum I created gave me the thumb (better than the finger! but I've gotten that a few times too) when they visited. I can't speculate on their motivations but even my most pointless postings (kind like this one) have gotten many, many thumbs and it makes me feel like part of the community and that I actually have something to offer to said community.

Now, I know in the mind of most Euro gamers (yer-OG-a-murs, according to Judd) the stereotypical wargamer probably looks a bit like Bernie Sanders and talks like Jim from Taxi and will go on and on about who had what tank and which tank had which gun in 1944 versus 1945 (or eastern front v. west front!) and will argue about those things for hours on end (guilty as charged!); we do though, thumb other wargamers post like madmen.

I also go to a few of the Euro games forums/Geeklists this site tends to focus on heavily and the thing I have noticed (and for quite a while) is that there will be pages and pages of posts on someone's forum/Geeklist and not one single thumb in the header or the poster's initial question/statement. Why is this?

All of the above said, I have recently gone to a couple Euro gamer posts and the last one had three pages worth of answers to his question; and I was the first to give the thread a thumb! I figured the guy made a post that motivated me to provide an opinion on, why not give the guy a bit of feedback. There is a quite active thread for Euro gamers with 117 pages (!) but only 167 thumbs; in the Thirty-Seventh Monthly Wargame Flea - January 2016 there are only a total of 17 Geeklist items and it has 107 thumbs!

For comparison, the following are some of the Geeklists/threads I actively read or participate in and their thumb numbers:

Marnaudo's video reviews - 1321 thumbs! (granted this is Marco so it throws everything off!)
Thirty-Seventh Monthly Wargame Flea - January 2016 - 107 thumbs
Wargames on your table - January 2016 - 90 thumbs (this is a monthly thread! and this month is a low participation month)

I don't post this to start a whole "who's better wargamers or Euro gamers" discussion (we all know we are better!) but I really am curious why the massive disparity between the two groups. I see it as a being polite to thumb someone who took the time out of their day to post something to entertain or enlighten me about this hobby.

Let's hear what you have to say about this wargamers! (Euro gamers can chime in too).

This is a thread with a question about the politeness and/or appreciative nature of thumbing over not thumbing, so lets all keep it civil. Thanks
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Roger Hobden
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Let's not forget GeekGold, also.

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It's like Sun Tzu said: "Thumbing is merely the continuation of wargaming by other means."
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Ron A
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PaulWRoberts wrote:
It's like Sun Tzu said: "Thumbing is merely the continuation of wargaming by other means."


THAT was von Clausewitz, Sun Tzu said:

"If you thumb the enemy and thumb yourself you need not fear the results of a hundred forum threads."
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Mallet wrote:
Let's not forget GeekGold, also.

Belgian 'chocolates' being "preferred" even too @ times! whistle
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Ryan R
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Have you been to the Feel the Love threads yet? I take it you have not..
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Zigi Hogan
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Vroomer wrote:
Have you been to the Feel the Love threads yet? I take it you have not..


Yes I have. And it is a perfect example of what I am saying with this thread.

Feel the Love - Thread #7 has 5084 individual posts over 204 pages and only 57 thumbs for the thread!

The Wargamers Paying It Forward list has 511 individual posts only 21 pages and has so far garnered 285 thumbs.

That is approximately 10 percent of the posts and pages on the wargame page but it has 5 times the amount of thumbs on the wargame thread as opposed to the non-wargame thread. My questions still stands; why so few thumbs? Do the non-wargamers not appreciate what others do? Or do they just not care?

This question is also not a thumb fishing thread, like Feel the Love is, this is a legitimate question of why the ratio of wargame threads getting thumbs is so much higher than non-wargame threads when the wargamers on this site have much smaller numbers than other types of gamers.
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Zigihogan wrote:
Vroomer wrote:
Have you been to the Feel the Love threads yet? I take it you have not..


Yes I have. And it is a perfect example of what I am saying with this thread.

Feel the Love - Thread #7 has 5084 individual posts over 204 pages and only 57 thumbs for the thread!

The Wargamers Paying It Forward list has 511 individual posts only 21 pages and has so far garnered 285 thumbs.

That is approximately 10 percent of the posts and pages on the wargame page but it has 5 times the amount of thumbs on the wargame thread as opposed to the non-wargame thread. My questions still stands; why so few thumbs? Do the non-wargamers not appreciate what others do? Or do they just not care?

This question is also not a thumb fishing thread, like Feel the Love is, this is a legitimate question of why the ratio of wargame threads getting thumbs is so much higher than non-wargame threads when the wargamers on this site have much smaller numbers than other types of gamers.


Maybe they use the site more, have an understanding of thumbs, etc. I dunno...
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Ryan R
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darthhugo wrote:
Zigihogan wrote:
Vroomer wrote:
Have you been to the Feel the Love threads yet? I take it you have not..


Yes I have. And it is a perfect example of what I am saying with this thread.

Feel the Love - Thread #7 has 5084 individual posts over 204 pages and only 57 thumbs for the thread!

The Wargamers Paying It Forward list has 511 individual posts only 21 pages and has so far garnered 285 thumbs.

That is approximately 10 percent of the posts and pages on the wargame page but it has 5 times the amount of thumbs on the wargame thread as opposed to the non-wargame thread. My questions still stands; why so few thumbs? Do the non-wargamers not appreciate what others do? Or do they just not care?

This question is also not a thumb fishing thread, like Feel the Love is, this is a legitimate question of why the ratio of wargame threads getting thumbs is so much higher than non-wargame threads when the wargamers on this site have much smaller numbers than other types of gamers.


Maybe they use the site more, have an understanding of thumbs, etc. I dunno...


Go back to other locked love threads. Some folks just go through and thumb the posts, not the thread. Thumb farming? Maybe. Again, some might not get the point of thumbs. Some do. Stick to wargames and the love threads and you'll be fine.

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I thumb a wargame Geeklist to let em know I appreciate them making one. More wargamers need to make them. What games did you get? What did you play? What are your favorites? Heck, even if I don't like the game, I find it interesting, including the discussion.

And I must give credit to where it is due. Eur-ah-gah-mer was created by this gent:

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He's as funny as Rusty and if you haven't read the comments on games that he rated lowly, you are missing out:

https://www.boardgamegeek.com/collection/user/mistermarino?r...

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Zigihogan wrote:
This question is also not a thumb fishing thread, like Feel the Love is, this is a legitimate question of why the ratio of wargame threads getting thumbs is so much higher than non-wargame threads when the wargamers on this site have much smaller numbers than other types of gamers.

You're framing that as if you've actually demonstrated that it's true, but cherry picking a few of threads that fit your premise isn't data. I'm sure somebody who wanted to prove the opposite case could find threads that backed that as well. In fact, I remember an old thread in this forum lamenting that wargame threads got fewer thumbs than euro threads. I could find it if I cared, but I come here to talk about wargames, not thumbs.

Vroomer wrote:
Stick to wargames and the love threads and you'll be fine.

Stick to love threads as in, actually spend time on them? Seriously?
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airjudden wrote:
And I must give credit to where it is due. Eur-ah-gah-mer was created by this gent:

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He's as funny as Rusty and if you haven't read the comments on games that he rated lowly, you are missing out:

https://www.boardgamegeek.com/collection/user/mistermarino?r...


I won't hold that against him - Mr. Marino is awesome.
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Jim F
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I play quite a lot of euros at my local club but, since I'm never going to buy them and I'm not into reading up the strategies before I play them, I never bother to read the threads on them.

This place seems quite generous if my tally is anything to go by since I'm not a particularly prolific contributor.
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Eddy Sterckx
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nah, wargamers are just lazy bas ... I mean more into optimization. Why write stuff when you can just thumb a post that basically says what you wanted to say too ?
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Frederic Manson
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IMHO, as consims are games based upon true historical facts (wars) and details are more important due to "bubbles" surrounding games.

How a "generic" system developed for a game could easily simulate the two (or more) sides in a conflict?? Do the data are accurate and really integrated into the system model?? Also, each consimer has knowledges of History and experience of playing. And consims ARE History.

So, what??

It's simple: we share our knowledge, our experience, our feelings in discussions. And we rate these discussions with our Golden Thumb. We love to play consims, we love History, we talk consims AND History, we eat consims AND History every day (I think that some are "sleeping" consims too!! whistle ). We are true fans and a lot of us are going to be consims addicted people (I really love this legal drug!! ).

IMHO, as I said.
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Zigihogan wrote:


Now, I know in the mind of most Euro gamers (yer-OG-a-murs, according to Judd) the stereotypical wargamer probably looks a bit like Bernie Sanders and talks like Jim from Taxi and will go on and on about who had what tank and which tank had which gun in 1944 versus 1945 (or eastern front v. west front!) and will argue about those things for hours on end (guilty as charged!)


I had to chuckle about this statement because it's probably true in a lot of cases. And we do like to discuss history and historical "what-ifs", weaponry, tactics, strategy, and a whole host of other things wargame related.

I was just imagining Eurogamers discussing the history of agriculture, sheep herding, lumberjacking, stone mining, etc...and having heated debates over these topics as we wargamers sometimes do about our games.

Therefore I set forth a challenge to Eurogamers everywhere to discuss these types of historical topics in a lengthy forum! *no wargamers allowed to participate, only to observe* Restriction removed.
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Vroomer wrote:
Zigihogan wrote:
Vroomer wrote:
Have you been to the Feel the Love threads yet? I take it you have not..


Yes I have. And it is a perfect example of what I am saying with this thread.

Feel the Love - Thread #7 has 5084 individual posts over 204 pages and only 57 thumbs for the thread!

The Wargamers Paying It Forward list has 511 individual posts only 21 pages and has so far garnered 285 thumbs.


Go back to other locked love threads. Some folks just go through and thumb the posts, not the thread.


Yeah, looking just at thumbs for a thread, rather than for the individual posts, is probably not the way to go. Speaking for myself, I rarely but rarely thumb a thread. I've given over 3000 thumbs, it appears, but only 42 were for threads: 6 total in 2015.
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eddy_sterckx wrote:

nah, wargamers are just lazy bas ... I mean more into optimization. Why write stuff when you can just thumb a post that basically says what you wanted to say too ?


Guilty. I have many reasons why I thumb a post and this is one of them.
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Jon Gautier

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I still miss the thumbs down button.
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Osprey wrote:

Therefore I set forth a challenge to Eurogamers everywhere to discuss these types of historical topics in a lengthy forum! *no wargamers allowed to participate, only to observe*


It's a rather common mistake in here to think that eurogamers and wargamers are 2 distinct groups. Most wargamers I know are simply just gamers : they own and play wargames, eurogames, ameritrash, co-op, party and kids games in various degrees.

Of course post-game talk after playing a wargame will focus on history topics : is the outcome historically plausible, did the units behave as their historic counterparts, do the mechanics reflect the problems and decisions the historical commanders had to take etc.

Post-game talk of a eurogame will not focus on the theme or underlying history but on the mechanics - did they produce an enjoyable thinky game, were there multiple paths to victory or is a certain strategy a game-winner, comparisons will be made with other games by that designer or other games using similar mechanics, do the graphics and layout help in remembering the rules, is it fiddly, the luck factor, is this game fine or not for AP players etc.

I don't see one type of talk having a higher merit than the other one, I'm just as happy dissecting a eurogame's mechanics to the bone as I am in discussing the historicity of a wargame.
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eddy_sterckx wrote:
Osprey wrote:

Therefore I set forth a challenge to Eurogamers everywhere to discuss these types of historical topics in a lengthy forum! *no wargamers allowed to participate, only to observe*


It's a rather common mistake in here to think that eurogamers and wargamers are 2 distinct groups. Most wargamers I know are simply just gamers : they own and play wargames, eurogames, ameritrash, co-op, party and kids games in various degrees.

Of course post-game talk after playing a wargame will focus on history topics : is the outcome historically plausible, did the units behave as their historic counterparts, do the mechanics reflect the problems and decisions the historical commanders had to take etc.

Post-game talk of a eurogame will not focus on the theme or underlying history but on the mechanics - did they produce an enjoyable thinky game, were there multiple paths to victory or is a certain strategy a game-winner, comparisons will be made with other games by that designer or other games using similar mechanics, do the graphics and layout help in remembering the rules, is it fiddly, the luck factor, is this game fine or not for AP players etc.

I don't see one type of talk having a higher merit than the other one, I'm just as happy dissecting a eurogame's mechanics to the bone as I am in discussing the historicity of a wargame.


Of course Eddy. I play all of those games too, and for the same reasons you mention. You take my post too seriously. I would still love to see one though just for the entertainment value. Might possibly learn something too.

EDIT: Heck, forget the restriction to wargamers. It would probably take a wargamer to start a thread like that anyway.
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Osprey wrote:

Of course Eddy. I play all of those games too, and for the same reasons you mention. You take my post too seriously.


Sometimes it's hard to tell in here
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I will state the obvious: wargamers are like any other gamers, they are people, like any other people. I have not found the community to be any better, or any worse, than any other group; but there is the concern of cliques that centre around certain games or designers. If you say the right thing, it is a love-in. Say the wrong thing and you are roasted to utter ashes.

goo
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Zigi Hogan
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bentlarsen wrote:
I will state the obvious: wargamers are like any other gamers, they are people, like any other people. I have not found the community to be any better, or any worse, than any other group; but there is the concern of cliques that centre around certain games or designers. If you say the right thing, it is a love-in. Say the wrong thing and you are roasted to utter ashes. goo


No truer thing was said!

A great case and point is I made an off the cuff comment that Hannibal: Rome vs. Carthage was similar to Twilight Struggle and the level of vitriol I received in that thread was amazing. According to some, I don't understand wargames at all, I am so stupid I shouldn't be playing either game and that if I could actually read I would have read how different they are!

I was hesitant to post this thread in the first place for the same reason; this has nothing to do with an "Us vs. Them" type mentality it is only something I have anecdotally noticed in my travels through BGG. It brought to my mind, "why the difference?", both camps (ie. wargamers & Euro gamers) are passionate about their respective side of the hobby AND I do play a few (very few) Euro games and do read some of the threads but even my most pointless comments in a wargame forum (and I make quite a few) will get a thumb or two but if I give my opinion in a non-wargame forum to someone who asks for it (FYI, if my mouth is moving it is my opinion), I don't even get a thumb from the original poster for answering his request.

This question was mostly asked only out of my personal curiosity in the occurrences I have seen in my experience here on the Geek. Now all the self-righteous all knowing people here on BGG can tell me how wrong I am with my observations.
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