Recommend
2 
 Thumb up
 Hide
35 Posts
1 , 2  Next »   | 

Gato Leader» Forums » General

Subject: Kickstarter LIVE rss

Your Tags: Add tags
Popular Tags: [View All]
Ludovic Russo
Monaco
Monte-Carlo
flag msg tools
badge
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
Pledge ->there<- !
and then post here
2 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Joseph Propati
United States
San Diego
California
flag msg tools
designer
badge
Avatar
LudoMC wrote:
Pledge ->there<- !
and then post here


$135 for both games! oh well, I was almost there.
1 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Ludovic Russo
Monaco
Monte-Carlo
flag msg tools
badge
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
It seems there is no special price as the MSRP is $64.99 one their site and $65.00 on KS (we even pay $0.01 more!)
It's like a pre-order with the additional benefit (for me) to save on shipping as this will be dispatched from Germany for the European players.
Even if I find it still a little bit expensive. 35$ for Europe-to-Europe shipping. I've already sent and received Europe-Europe parcels the same weight/size for far less. But still, less expensive than the shipping from US and potential customs taxes...

It is also handy if you want to add other games as add-ons.
1 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Joseph Propati
United States
San Diego
California
flag msg tools
designer
badge
Avatar
This to me seems like a big pre-order and you aren't supposed to use kickstarter that way.
 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Ryan
United States
flag msg tools
1 Player hardcore
badge
Lone Warrior
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
With all due respect, Joseph, and correct me if I'm wrong, but is there a certain way products are supposed to offered on Kickstarter? Just like any other outlet for selling games, the seller gets to set the price and we get to choose whether to buy it or not.

Considering that KS, like traditional preorder systems, use cheaper than retail prices as an incentive to invest/pledge your money up front, I agree that the price here is unattractive. But ultimately the main effect might be to cause the project to fail if the product isn't financially attractive.

That said, I still don't see how it's wrong for DVG to offer the pledge price or package currently on the table.
1 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Joseph Propati
United States
San Diego
California
flag msg tools
designer
badge
Avatar
Ryanmobile wrote:
With all due respect, Joseph, and correct me if I'm wrong, but is there a certain way products are supposed to offered on Kickstarter? Just like any other outlet for selling games, the seller gets to set the price and we get to choose whether to buy it or not.

Considering that KS, like traditional preorder systems, use cheaper than retail prices as an incentive to invest/pledge your money up front, I agree that the price here is unattractive. But ultimately the main effect might be to cause the project to fail if the product isn't financially attractive.

That said, I still don't see how it's wrong for DVG to offer the pledge price or package currently on the table.


What's wrong is that DVG has already setup Gato Leader and U-boat as a pre-orders through their website and they're on backorder, which means they already have the game manufactured!! Kickstarter is meant to be a site for research and development, NOT PRE-ORDER! What DVG is doing is wrong! If they had never had the game on their site or in a backorder status then it would be perfectly fine to try to develop Gato leader and bring it to reality but the truth is they have already brought Gato to reality and they're trying to take advantage of Kickstarter to boost sales! Something VPG seems to be also doing rather well! Wrong! Plus, they're selling the damn thing cheaper on their website! The whole point of using kickstarter is to try and get your idea to become a reality and along the way to give people some incentive because they are risking their money to get your "idea" created! Gato Leader is not a new "idea" for DVG and "to me" its BS what they are doing! IMHO!
 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Mike Malley
United States
flag msg tools
mbmbmbmbmb
I don't necessarily disagree, but the "Kickstarter should never be used for pre-orders" ship has sailed long ago.
1 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Joseph Propati
United States
San Diego
California
flag msg tools
designer
badge
Avatar
caffeinehead wrote:
I don't necessarily disagree, but the "Kickstarter should never be used for pre-orders" ship has sailed long ago.


So have they changed their rules or are you still not allowed to use KS as a product pre-order? This could very well be a rule they changed just to make more money! They are incredibly greedy bastards who don't give a rats ass about people when they lose money from a bogus project!! IMHO!
 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Mike Malley
United States
flag msg tools
mbmbmbmbmb
DVG is far from the first company to use Kickstarter strictly as a pre-order system, and some of them were even more blatant about it.
2 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Ryan
United States
flag msg tools
1 Player hardcore
badge
Lone Warrior
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
kingspud wrote:
What's wrong is that DVG has already setup Gato Leader and U-boat as a pre-orders through their website and they're on backorder, which means they already have the game manufactured!!

I've had a Gato preorder for 3 years or more. In that time DVG has always classified it as a backorder - like it has every other game on it's website not currently in stock. I've received 2 of the 5 games I preordered from them; and never have I been charged until a few months before I received the game. Pretty sure you made a completely bogus claim. If the game is already manufactured, why have they been sitting on my cc for so long without charging?

kingspud wrote:
Kickstarter is meant to be a site for research and development, NOT PRE-ORDER! What DVG is doing is wrong! If they had never had the game on their site or in a backorder status then it would be perfectly fine to try to develop Gato leader and bring it to reality but the truth is they have already brought Gato to reality and they're trying to take advantage of Kickstarter to boost sales! Something VPG seems to be also doing rather well! Wrong! Plus, they're selling the damn thing cheaper on their website! The whole point of using kickstarter is to try and get your idea to become a reality and along the way to give people some incentive because they are risking their money to get your "idea" created! Gato Leader is not a new "idea" for DVG and "to me" its BS what they are doing! IMHO!

KS isn't an altruistic outfit. They're here to make money off the funds that go to DVG. DVG isn't altruistic, they want to sell games and make money. None of us are altruistic, we all want something for our money.

So I don't see what the big deal is. At least with DVG, an established company, we are much more likely to actually see a physical product than when we back a new "artist" who only has a partially brainstormed idea in mind with no idea how to produce it.

Crowd funding is a weird thing. I'm sure any of us who have participated in it have been on a roller coaster ride of ups and downs. I'm pretty much over any kind of excitement with it. Been burned once and nearly everything else I've received has given me a feelings of "ho-hum" to outright disappointment. To me it is just another extension of a pre-order, albeit with a weird accompanying social phenomenon and more financial risk.
3 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Joseph Propati
United States
San Diego
California
flag msg tools
designer
badge
Avatar
Ryanmobile wrote:
That said, I still don't see how it's wrong for DVG to offer the pledge price or package currently on the table.


If KS doesn't care that companies use their website as a pre-order process then I'll totally agree with you that there is nothing wrong with what DVG is doing!

There is just no different with what they are doing here then on the DVG website.

 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Scott M.
United States
Winter Springs
Florida
flag msg tools
badge
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
looked at DVG website, looked at KS...

bottom line.. this looks shitty in my book. THis is exactly whats wrong with game companies today using KS like another store front. Now DVG joins the list.. shame.
1 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Joseph Propati
United States
San Diego
California
flag msg tools
designer
badge
Avatar
atraangelis wrote:
looked at DVG website, looked at KS...

bottom line.. this looks shitty in my book. THis is exactly whats wrong with game companies today using KS like another store front. Now DVG joins the list.. shame.


Store front!! Thank you, I couldn't think of that phrase and that is exactly what I was trying to say!

Perfect!

Nail on the head!
 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Mike Malley
United States
flag msg tools
mbmbmbmbmb
A year or two ago I brought one of those blatant examples to Kickstarter's attention when even they were saying that Kickstarter isn't a store, and they didn't care. So as far as I can tell, you care a lot more than they do, Joseph.
1 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Joseph Propati
United States
San Diego
California
flag msg tools
designer
badge
Avatar
caffeinehead wrote:
A year or two ago I brought one of those blatant examples to Kickstarter's attention when even they were saying that Kickstarter isn't a store, and they didn't care. So as far as I can tell, you care a lot more than they do, Joseph.


I just think is sad because I was right there when Kickstarter hit the scene and I thought it was the coolest website ever! It had its ups and downs, plus it was just trying to find itself but it truly was a novel idea for a website. Now it had become something different altogether and although it still helps out individuals or groups who have a special idea that would never have been possible without the process, its sad to me just how corporate it has become and how they've ignored the abuse that is rampant within the website process. Just think about all the truly bogus KS projects that were created just to scam people out of money and KS took their share and did nothing to resolve the issue! Sad.

Oh well, I guess it works most of the time.
1 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
fightcitymayor
United States
Pennsylvania
flag msg tools
badge
"This is a really weird game, and you’ll find that most people will not want to play this."
Avatar
mb
caffeinehead wrote:
I don't necessarily disagree, but the "Kickstarter should never be used for pre-orders" ship has sailed long ago.
True.

OH, the fights I have had on BGG over this topic.

On one hand, Joseph is right: Kickstarter itself has taken great pains to declare "Kickstarter is not a store!"

On the other hand, publishers & designers use it exactly as a store, and a pre-order system, and a hype-machine, and are not at all shy about any of it.

Then there is the double-standard which is wanting it both ways: You can't scream out "GET YER PRE-ORDERS HERE!" like publishers do, and then when something goes wrong you send your fanboys and cheerleaders out to scream at me "KICKSTARTER IS NOT A PRE-ORDER SYSTEM!" Either you are offering me a product for a price, or you aren't. And publishers are certainly offering me a product for a price, which makes it a pre-order system & ultimately a store.
1 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Ludovic Russo
Monaco
Monte-Carlo
flag msg tools
badge
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
Here is what they're saying on their KS page
Quote:

Your Support

Why do we need your support? Because we are a small game company, and printers need to be paid up front.

We rely on pre-orders to pay the printing fees for our games. There is a substantial gap of about 5 months between the time we must pay the printer, and the time we start receiving payments for the games. To bridge this gap, we do our best to raise the funds with Kickstarter campaigns powered by your support for our company.


I don't think they make millions of profit like some bigger gaming companies.

They may need KS to get a little bit more of visibility (as several said here, Gato Leader is on their page for some time now, maybe with not enough interest and pre-orders).
I can't see what the problem is. For me KS is a way for a company (one-man company or bigger ones) to get funds before investing if they can't or if it puts them too much at risk.
They most probably have an interest here as KS will take x% of the funding (don't know how much), which would not happen if they relied only on their website. So I suppose this balance the added visibility.

If it's an ethical issue for you, just don't pledge and wait for it to be in stock on DVG website.
As I told above, some, like me, may find an advantage going this way. We're not all in the same boat. I will definitely save on shipping and will be sure to avoid customs. Quite good for me.
Another good thing is the possibility to get additional games as add-ons without adding more in shipping!
3 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Ryan
United States
flag msg tools
1 Player hardcore
badge
Lone Warrior
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
kingspud wrote:
Ryanmobile wrote:
That said, I still don't see how it's wrong for DVG to offer the pledge price or package currently on the table.


If KS doesn't care that companies use their website as a pre-order process then I'll totally agree with you that there is nothing wrong with what DVG is doing!

There is just no different with what they are doing here then on the DVG website.


This is exactly what I'm talking about. If established companies such as GMT, VPG, DVG, etc. have been using KS (and in the case of DVG offering simultaneous preorders on its own website), it's gotta be because KS is okay with it. And if KS is okay with it, then I can't see the problem you've been describing. I'm sure KS knows who its clients are and would block a project that didn't line up with its vision.

I know that in the early days KS operated as you previously described. But it's become such a successful avenue for game publishers to seek funding that I can't find fault with publishers for desiring to utilize it nor KS for broadening the scope of projects allowed, because hey, they also make more money by allowing these projects.

And to me, if it helps certain games get published that wouldn't otherwise be published, it's good. Ultimately, as consumers we get to decide whether these titles get published through this avenue, which I think is cool. Don't like it, don't have to support it.

However, that doesn't mean I'm excited about KS anymore. I'm so burned out on feeling pressure to buy games in a compressed time frame that I rarely back anything anymore. I don't like the hype that comes with KS exclusives or the threats that a game won't be available retail afterward - so BACK IT NOW to GET IT! But that's just me.

I'm glad I preordered Gato a long time ago because I've had the expense planned in my mind for years now. Had I not, there's no way I would be backing through KS at this time.

Edit: And I agree with everything Ludovic said above.
3 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Joseph Propati
United States
San Diego
California
flag msg tools
designer
badge
Avatar
Ryanmobile wrote:
kingspud wrote:
Ryanmobile wrote:
That said, I still don't see how it's wrong for DVG to offer the pledge price or package currently on the table.


If KS doesn't care that companies use their website as a pre-order process then I'll totally agree with you that there is nothing wrong with what DVG is doing!

There is just no different with what they are doing here then on the DVG website.


This is exactly what I'm talking about. If established companies such as GMT, VPG, DVG, etc. have been using KS (and in the case of DVG offering simultaneous preorders on its own website), it's gotta be because KS is okay with it. And if KS is okay with it, then I can't see the problem you've been describing. I'm sure KS knows who its clients are and would block a project that didn't line up with its vision.

I know that in the early days KS operated as you previously described. But it's become such a successful avenue for game publishers to seek funding that I can't find fault with publishers for desiring to utilize it nor KS for broadening the scope of projects allowed, because hey, they also make more money by allowing these projects.

And to me, if it helps certain games get published that wouldn't otherwise be published, it's good. Ultimately, as consumers we get to decide whether these titles get published through this avenue, which I think is cool. Don't like it, don't have to support it.

However, that doesn't mean I'm excited about KS anymore. I'm so burned out on feeling pressure to buy games in a compressed time frame that I rarely back anything anymore. I don't like the hype that comes with KS exclusives or the threats that a game won't be available retail afterward - so BACK IT NOW to GET IT! But that's just me.

I'm glad I preordered Gato a long time ago because I've had the expense planned in my mind for years now. Had I not, there's no way I would be backing through KS at this time.

Edit: And I agree with everything Ludovic said above.


Yeah, I'm right there with you! I've backed so many projects on KS that I've received all kinds of good and bad games! I too am burned out on the whole process especially when I see a project I backed on KS selling in a store before I even received mine! I'm not sure why I'm so upset about it because your right that it gives companies an avenue to sell a game to a wider audience then what they would have received through their own website. "perfect example "Nemo's war", which they NEVER would have made over $200K through their own website" I think I'm just mad that KS has turned into another store front for game publishers and less an idea factory.

I guess you have to grow with the times.

Sorry for the unnecessary heat!
2 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Nick Bos
Finland
Helsinki
Uusimaa
flag msg tools
badge
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
Ryanmobile wrote:

I don't like the hype that comes with KS exclusives or the threats that a game won't be available retail afterward - so BACK IT NOW to GET IT! But that's just me.
.


100% agree with this! So annoying, especially because I'm quite sensitive to that. I understand that many developers can't keep a stock though. For example Cthulhu Wars might not be available in retail, so I just have to think really hard about what I want/need and what not, because I'm definitely not going to buy everything.

Same with this one. U-boat leader was impossible for me to get my hands on, so definitely backing that. But will the same apply to Gato? Will I be able to get it later? Probably not. Does that mean I should buy it now even though I might not need it...aaaaaaaaaaagh! soblue

2 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Man thinks, the river flows.
United States
Riva
Maryland
flag msg tools
Avatar
mbmbmb
    Kickstarter is the Infomercial of the boardgaming industry, without the rock-hard abs. Personally, if I'm going to go for that kind of thing I prefer it with the rock-hard abs. But that's just my preference.

    If you're interested in the game at the price, buy it. If not, hold off until you see something more worthwhile.

    Although, if you call in the next fifteen minutes, you'll get TWO copies of Gato Leader for the price of one! You just pay an extra handling fee. That's a SECOND Gato Leader absolutely free!
1 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Ludovic Russo
Monaco
Monte-Carlo
flag msg tools
badge
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
There is now a stretch goal at $25K for a Ship Miniatures Expansion pack (MSRP $39.99) which would be free for backers.
See there are benefits for backing sometimes
1 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Joseph Propati
United States
San Diego
California
flag msg tools
designer
badge
Avatar
I thought I would share this response from Kickstarter support and show you just how much they really don't want to answer a question regarding selling or pre-order products on KS because I ask a pretty straight forward question and got an answer that had nothing to do with what I asked.

My question to Kickstarter regarding pre-order selling:

"If I have a company that sells a product yet I don't seem to get the amount of support I need to manufacture the product, can I use KS to sell the same product? To me this seems like a preorder process but it doesn't say anything in the rules about "not being able to do preorder" through KS. Can you show me where it says I can't do this or where it says I can sell my "product" through KS.
Thanks"

ok, maybe it's me but that seems to be a pretty straight forward question about selling products on KS, right?



Here is the response from KS support:

"Hi,

Thanks for writing in and sharing some of your project's details with us. In situations like this, we recommend creators like yourself start drafting their project and submit it for review once it's finished. This way, our Integrity team can review all aspects of your project at once.

You can do this by completing all sections in the project edit and then clicking the "Continue" button. From there, you can select the "Submit for review" option. Once you're approved (which can take a few days depending on the level of submissions we're receiving), you can launch whenever you'd like.

In the meantime - start asking your immediate network for some feedback. What do your friends think of your proposed rewards? How about your video? As far as getting the word out, many people browsing Kickstarter do look around for new projects to back, but the majority of the people who find and back your project will be friends, friends of friends, or fans of the work you do. Consider reaching out through blogs, other websites, or even events.

Looking forward to seeing your project!

Best,
Alfie
"

Did anyone find the answer to my question in this response?

Well, you got me...
2 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Morten Monrad Pedersen
Denmark
flag msg tools
designer
badge
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
kingspud wrote:
I thought I would share this response from Kickstarter support and show you just how much they really don't want to answer a question regarding selling or pre-order products on KS because I ask a pretty straight forward question and got an answer that had nothing to do with what I asked.

My question to Kickstarter regarding pre-order selling:

"If I have a company that sells a product yet I don't seem to get the amount of support I need to manufacture the product, can I use KS to sell the same product? To me this seems like a preorder process but it doesn't say anything in the rules about "not being able to do preorder" through KS. Can you show me where it says I can't do this or where it says I can sell my "product" through KS.
Thanks"

ok, maybe it's me but that seems to be a pretty straight forward question about selling products on KS, right?



Here is the response from KS support:

"Hi,

Thanks for writing in and sharing some of your project's details with us. In situations like this, we recommend creators like yourself start drafting their project and submit it for review once it's finished. This way, our Integrity team can review all aspects of your project at once.

You can do this by completing all sections in the project edit and then clicking the "Continue" button. From there, you can select the "Submit for review" option. Once you're approved (which can take a few days depending on the level of submissions we're receiving), you can launch whenever you'd like.

In the meantime - start asking your immediate network for some feedback. What do your friends think of your proposed rewards? How about your video? As far as getting the word out, many people browsing Kickstarter do look around for new projects to back, but the majority of the people who find and back your project will be friends, friends of friends, or fans of the work you do. Consider reaching out through blogs, other websites, or even events.

Looking forward to seeing your project!

Best,
Alfie
"

Did anyone find the answer to my question in this response?

Well, you got me...


Wow. Either he didn't read your mail properly and just inserted a canned response and added one more resolved customer service ticket to his performance count or he really didn't want to answer your question and pretended to misunderstand it.
2 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Man thinks, the river flows.
United States
Riva
Maryland
flag msg tools
Avatar
mbmbmb
kingspud wrote:


ok, maybe it's me but that seems to be a pretty straight forward question about selling products on KS, right?



    That's a straightforward question with a straightforward answer all rolled into one!

    They gave you a canned response. I wouldn't assume a human even read your question.

    Let's all just come to grips with Kickstarter being a commerce site. It's a centralized preorder system for all sorts of products. Their "let's all pull together" public relations bullshit wore off about six months after the site went live. KS is a retailer pure and simple, and they take a cut of the action. They are direct competition to your local store and to online retailers. They don't answer your questions because they don't care.

    In this case there's a product described, DVG does very nice work, you know what you're getting and can depend on Dan to deliver it in a timely fashion. If you think it's worth the price go for it. But I'll tell you what -- if you want to support a small game developer your money is better spent at DVG.com where Kickstarter doesn't extract a commission. That's how you encourage new game designers.

             S.

2 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
1 , 2  Next »   | 
Front Page | Welcome | Contact | Privacy Policy | Terms of Service | Advertise | Support BGG | Feeds RSS
Geekdo, BoardGameGeek, the Geekdo logo, and the BoardGameGeek logo are trademarks of BoardGameGeek, LLC.