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Subject: Lure of the dark side rss

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Robert P
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Ok, this is very theoretical as we don't really know the game yet. But already i've got a feeling that this mission is overpowered as it grants a leader to the dark side and takes away a leader from the light side, which seems to be a huge advantage. Now everybody knows the story that Luke Skywalker was tempted, but if you use it one a low skilled leader (and so the easiest for the Emperor with two automatic successes to turn), it will still be a big shift as it grants two more actions (+1 Imperials -1 Rebels) to the dark side.
Thoughts?





 
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Scott Lewis
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It requires the leader to be captured first (which isn't a guarantee), and unless there's an exception for this card, the rebels can still bring in another leader to oppose it (so Luke isn't alone).

It could be very strong if it succeeds, but if it fails, then it's nothing, and it doesn't have the arrow symbol so it couldn't just be used over and over.

I think it looks fine.
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Jeremy Steward
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I think the biggest unknown factor is whether or not captured leaders contribute their icons or if "Play on a captured hero" means it can't be opposed. Because if it just the emperor vs the captive, then yah, it is kind of OP but if it is the Emperor vs 2 heroes, then it is more balanced.

On the flip side, the imperial player could simply play this + Vader and it would be very hard to stop.

The only other thing that the rebels have going for them, is since they have first turn, they can rescue before the convert.

So yah, I am a bit worried about the card balance-wise, but it is definite wait and see.
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Dennis Schwarz
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Why do you all think that this card will be overpowered??

I think your assumption is that they designed the game with a balanced number of leaders on both sides in mind and added those cards afterwards, breaking this balance (which would, indeed, make it OP).

My guess would be that they made the balance more on a "the Rebels have about 1-2 leaders less than the Empire" level, so that they are fully taking into account that the Empire WILL capture Rebel leaders, freeze them and possibly convert a Rebel leaders to their side.

So based on that assumption the game would probably be more broken if the Empire would NOT capture leaders from the Rebels...
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Jeremy Steward
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Neva Kee wrote:
Why do you all think that this card will be overpowered??

I think your assumption is that they designed the game with a balanced number of leaders on both sides in mind and added those cards afterwards, breaking this balance (which would, indeed, make it OP).

My guess would be that they made the balance more on a "the Rebels have about 1-2 leaders less than the Empire" level, so that they are fully taking into account that the Empire WILL capture Rebel leaders, freeze them and possibly convert a Rebel leaders to their side.

So based on that assumption the game would probably be more broken if the Empire would NOT capture leaders from the Rebels...


While I agree that captive rebels will be somewhat common. 2 of the 4 basic missions happen in an imperial system and the game is likely balanced around that fact. But gaining an extra leader while the rebels lose one is very powerful - also the fact that the leader is not rescueable, and my concern is that the mission is relatively easy to accomplish since Palpatine is guaranteed to be in the leader pool (barring a Return of the Jedi objective card).
 
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Grish
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Deadwolf wrote:
On the flip side, the imperial player could simply play this + Vader and it would be very hard to stop.





Jedi Luke stopped them in the movies! The Emperor must have rolled all blanks and Luke probably used his re-roll to great effect!
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Yan P.
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A few points:

1) You're only in that situation if 1) you use an operative in a system with an enemy unit 2) Old Darthy tries to capture you 3) you don't oppose it or you fail the roll 4) the Empire manages to draw the relevant mission card 5) the Empire has nothing better to do with Palpatine (3 diplo signs needed, palpy is the only imperial leader that qualifies. You'd have to combine two leaders otherwise) 6) you don't try to rescue the leader and 7) you fail the roll

2) You roll for all symbols. That means you are at least rolling 2 dice in defense. The worse your leader, the easiest for the Emperor, but the less they get out of converting your leader. The better your leader, the harder it is to convert. Leia would roll 5 dice, for instance.

3) I think it's good that there are a few powerful cards in there. Return of the Jedi is also a powerful card for the rebellion. It encourages you to balance your objectives with powerful opponent cards, with proper play actually seeing it done should be fairly rare.
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Marshall Black
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Not sure we can talk about OP, yet. Im sure they played the game enough to figure out if there is a balance issue. If rescued by rebels first then the lure of the dark side card will be discarded without use. Is that right?
 
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Robb Minneman
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I also think the only character who can play it is Emperor Palpatine. If one of your leaders is captured, make sure you've got someone who can oppose Palpatine's attempt to turn him to the dark side.

That also means there's a strong opportunity cost. Palpatine is a dangerous, capable character. Using him to turn a captured enemy leader is very useful, yes, but it gives up a powerful character's action, too.
 
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Dale Franklin
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I'm getting the feeling that the Empire need more actions anyway as they scourge the galaxy looking for the rebel base. The rebels appear to be less inclined to make fleet moves than the Empire.
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Three Headed Monkey
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black8080 wrote:
Not sure we can talk about OP, yet. Im sure they played the game enough to figure out if there is a balance issue. If rescued by rebels first then the lure of the dark side card will be discarded without use. Is that right?


Lure of the Dark Side won't be discarded. It would just remain in the Imperial players hand. He oould always capture another Rebel leader in the future.

robbbbbb wrote:
I also think the only character who can play it is Emperor Palpatine. If one of your leaders is captured, make sure you've got someone who can oppose Palpatine's attempt to turn him to the dark side.

Technically you could use two leaders to attempt it, but I can't see that every being better than using Palatine as he gets two auto successes at if opposed.
 
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Yan P.
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Three Headed Monkey wrote:
Lure of the Dark Side won't be discarded. It would just remain in the Imperial players hand. He oould always capture another Rebel leader in the future.


If the Imperial player but there are no legal targets by the time it is resolved, it is returned to his hand? Did you see this somewhere?
 
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Three Headed Monkey
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Xatham wrote:
Three Headed Monkey wrote:
Lure of the Dark Side won't be discarded. It would just remain in the Imperial players hand. He oould always capture another Rebel leader in the future.


If the Imperial player but there are no legal targets by the time it is resolved, it is returned to his hand? Did you see this somewhere?

Oh, now I get what you mean. I misunderstood, sorry. You mean if Lure has been assigned to a leader but the captured Rebel leader has been rescued before the Imperial player gets a chance to activate it.

Yeah I have no idea what happens. We haven't seen a specific case. My guess would be that is discarded.
 
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Yan P.
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dalinski wrote:
I'm getting the feeling that the Empire need more actions anyway as they scourge the galaxy looking for the rebel base. The rebels appear to be less inclined to make fleet moves than the Empire.


Attacking an imperial fleet with a good leader might be a delaying tactic - if the imperials don't put up a leader, you have 3 tactic cards on them. If they do, you retreat after one round and they can't move this turn.
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Dennis de Vries
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And we probably haven't seen all the cards yet, right? Maybe there is a 'Vader returns to light side' card for the rebels?
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Based on limited amount of cards we've seen, I'd guess the rebels would win much more than half the time unless the Imperials can generate action advantage.

Rebels objectives seem easier and leaders seem better, balanced by the Imperials ability to reduce the number of rebel actions per turn.

Like everyone in this thread, I am of course guessing.
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Three Headed Monkey
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eldaec wrote:
Based on limited amount of cards we've seen, I'd guess the rebels would win much more than half the time unless the Imperials can generate action advantage.

Rebels objectives seem easier and leaders seem better, balanced by the Imperials ability to reduce the number of rebel actions per turn.

Like everyone in this thread, I am of course guessing.

I do like the subtle theme to the balancing too. The Empire has endless, faceless troops and imposing star ships led by a powerful few, the Rebels are literally the protagonists from a movie. They rely on brave acts of heroics to win the day.
 
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Marshall Black
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There is the card where Luke can remove an Imperial Leader from the game.
 
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black8080 wrote:
There is the card where Luke can remove an Imperial Leader from the game.


Though it is a level 3, so you can't trigger it till the final third of the game. Also requires a battle victory in a system that has Luke Skywalker and either Vader or Palpatine.

If the rebels are winning military battles which the Imperials have committed their best leaders to, they are probably already winning. Return of the Jedi seems like a card to end a game, not one to build advantage.
 
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Three Headed Monkey wrote:
Xatham wrote:
Three Headed Monkey wrote:
Lure of the Dark Side won't be discarded. It would just remain in the Imperial players hand. He oould always capture another Rebel leader in the future.


If the Imperial player but there are no legal targets by the time it is resolved, it is returned to his hand? Did you see this somewhere?

Oh, now I get what you mean. I misunderstood, sorry. You mean if Lure has been assigned to a leader but the captured Rebel leader has been rescued before the Imperial player gets a chance to activate it.

Yeah I have no idea what happens. We haven't seen a specific case. My guess would be that is discarded.


We do know you don't have to activate all your leaders. My assumptoon would be if you set up a mission but don't activate it, the card returns to your hand. But we don't really know.
 
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Marshall Black
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Yes I think you can pass, and you don't get to take anymore actions. I just don't know if that means all the missions you set up that didn't get used go back to your hand..
 
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Jeremy Steward
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eldaec wrote:
black8080 wrote:
There is the card where Luke can remove an Imperial Leader from the game.


Though it is a level 3, so you can't trigger it till the final third of the game. Also requires a battle victory in a system that has Luke Skywalker and either Vader or Palpatine.

If the rebels are winning military battles which the Imperials have committed their best leaders to, they are probably already winning. Return of the Jedi seems like a card to end a game, not one to build advantage.


This is a good example of my concern, Lure of the Dark Side is a powerful card with few restrictions unlike something like Return of the Jedi.

I think it will all depend on overall game balance and who, if any has the natural advantage.

We will also have to see how easy/hard it is to capture. The rebels have essentially 2 basic missions that occur with imperial units, but it is still no guarantee that when you send Vader on that capture mission that he will have a target. Also with a capture mission you will have an opportunity to double oppose. So if you have Leia in a system with imp units and Chewie holding back to oppose, you have a strong edge in resisting the capture. The rebels can also potentially rescue before the convert. So we will have to see.


 
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Dave Weiss
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A. You have to predict when a rebel leader may be available for capture (has to be in a system with one of your units)
B. You have to perform the capture, and succeed.
C. You need to have the proper card (lure)
D. You need to succeed at luring them to the darkside.

When you consider how many ways this can go wrong and the cost, it undercuts the power a little.

If you predict incorrectly, and there are no leaders available for capture, you just wasted one of your very limited action.
If you did predict correctly, you could still fail the capture, wasting your action.
You need to have a card that you may not even draw during the course of the game.
If you commit the emporer to the lure card the same turn as the capture, you may waste 2 of your limited actions, with your two most powerful characters.
If you commit the emporer to use the lure card on the following turn, the Rebels may free the prisoner before you get a chance to lure him, which just wasted one of your actions.
What if you lose the opposing roll and don't turn him. Now the card is spent, the actions used, and you just have a captured leader.

Even in a best case scenario, you've used up two of your actions with your most powerful characters. Can you afford to do that? Even if you can predict that they may have a leader in threat of capture, can you predict which one? What if you capture one of the lower end guys with jack for skills. Do you still dedicate your most powerful characters to convert him? Will the Rebel player let you waste your time when he has some big moves planed, and knows you may try to turn him/her. You might be committing powerful players when the rebels are making a big move. Or you may to hold back the emperor to counter a diplomatic action that may turn the loyalty of a planet.

Gaining actions and depriving the enemy of future actions are powerful moves, no doubt about that. But it's anything but a guarantee that you will have the right cards, be able to commit to the actions, and will succeed with the actions. It's not so cut and dry when actually put into action in the game.
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Kelly King
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Let's not forget the Rebels have the "Return of the Jedi" mission that has the capability of outright removing an Imperial Leader from the board after only one mission, while it takes two missions to turn a Rebel leader to the Dark Side, so there is time to rescue them before it happens.

I don't think it's too overpowered. I think it's very thematic.
 
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Jeremy Steward
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KTheOneTrueKing wrote:
Let's not forget the Rebels have the "Return of the Jedi" mission that has the capability of outright removing an Imperial Leader from the board after only one mission, while it takes two missions to turn a Rebel leader to the Dark Side, so there is time to rescue them before it happens.

I don't think it's too overpowered. I think it's very thematic.


As was mentioned, Return of the Jedi is a tier 3 objective. Lure of the Sith could be done on round 2.
 
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