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Subject: Added d6 and tides of war combat instead rss

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Ron Red

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I got mine as well and I had the rule book downloaded a week ago, I did a solo play and like the 3 video reviewers I have watched and the two I read the dice in combat are at a loss. It's a negative aspect. so I am teaching this out tomorrow and the next day.
Here is what I'm trying.
1. Keeping the custom dice for affinity rolls and tests
2. The numbers for dice you roll is the same.(though doubling it would make a faster game, nah we're not there yet.
3. Roll regular d6 and 4,5 and 6 are success, same for attacker and same for defender
4. Tally up the successes and set aside.
5. In a tie: if the attacker had more initial dice he moves the enemy 3 spaces, if the defender had more initial dice he moves the attacker 3 spaces(justified by higher stat, higher cost value and better attribute)
6. If the attacker beats the defender by one successful die roll, stun the defender
7. If the attacker beats the defender by two or more successful dice, kill the defender
8. If the defender wins by a single die the attacker is stunned
9. If the defender wins by two dice or more the attacker is moved three spaces and stunned

I'm open to ideas but I'm running with it not ruining it, I need feed back and sheesh we should start a forum on here that challenges our community to fix broken games.
Please provide feed back, myself preferring only if you have the same issues that I have with the game
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Jason McFarland
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It's not broken at all. Enjoy your house rule, but don't cry broken when many, many players are already enjoying and finding the depth in the existing combat system.
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Ron Red

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I feel there is a real loss in it. Is it innovative, yes, thought it was neat but something negative bogged it down for me. We shall see how it plays out. It's gorgeous and I paid for it, some how this has to hit the table running. It's not broken overall.
 
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Atila Kawauti
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Love it! I'll definitely try your house rules.

blkdymnd wrote:
It's not broken at all. Enjoy your house rule, but don't cry broken when many, many players are already enjoying and finding the depth in the existing combat system.


Not broken, just awful.
 
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Nicholas Kelsch
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blkdymnd wrote:
It's not broken at all. Enjoy your house rule, but don't cry broken when many, many players are already enjoying and finding the depth in the existing combat system.

And many many many more players are not enjoying it, including a majority of the reviews by professionals as well as people involved in the playtesting. I have never seen a game with so many unconnected people all having the exact same issue with a game mechanic before.

Jedi hand-waving for the sake of brand loyalty helps no one, not even the brand.
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Jason McFarland
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"Professionals"... lol
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Denis Maddalena
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blkdymnd wrote:
"Professionals"... lol


Right... i mean, I have yet to find one reviewer that I really agree with across the board. I use "professional reviewers" to get an idea how to play a game while commuting. It's good to hear opinions, and sometimes faults are well-founded, but ... there's an equal chance we just value aspects differently.

The first thing I notice in your method is the lack of choice and the stripping of the Moon Deck almost entirely. If it's used only for affinity tests, you've got a big deck of cards that doesn't really matter much. That deck is where things get fancy, and careful play can get you the result you might want. An attacker who thinks they outclass an opponent might be in for a rude awakening when the defender happens to have a pair of moon cards matching the cycle. Regarding choice, in your variant, you need to allow the winner to choose from the options. You're also missing several possible results.

I would say this variant is stripped down and boring. If I wanted to play a game where the goal was to throw more 4+ than my opponent, I'd just play Saga. Except Saga has that whole dice manipulation action selection thing going on that makes it slick and dynamic. 4+ Ninja All Stars is just another mindless CMON game.



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Jason McFarland
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The dice in this game are almost a secondary part of the game as a whole. The entire game is about positioning, board control with influence zones, assisting, stealth.... You can't get a good grip on the tactics on one quick walk through and I think that's what nearly all of the reviewers are missing that are bashing it. Tom Vasel especially. Just from his commentary you can tell he hasn't really even looked at the game.
 
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brandon allen
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So I am curious. All of the reviews posted here are negative. The most positive one was meeple leaf, and one of them liked it only with a rules rewrite, and the other reviewer didn't like it. Does anyone know of any reviewers that like this game?
I really want to like it, but frankly I can find no positive reviews at all, which is pretty concerning.
 
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Denis Maddalena
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glasswalker wrote:
So I am curious. All of the reviews posted here are negative. The most positive one was meeple leaf, and one of them liked it only with a rules rewrite, and the other reviewer didn't like it. Does anyone know of any reviewers that like this game?
I really want to like it, but frankly I can find no positive reviews at all, which is pretty concerning.


I can write one up for you if you desire opinions to validate a purchase.

But you should obviously see there are defenders of the system as-is. The most problematic thing about the game was its cute mass appeal and a very subtle system. It will not appeal to those seeking just outright murder. I think Okko suffered a similar problem, amongst others. The more people you reach, the less will understand what you were going for. There are a lot of folks who just want mindless hack and slash, For those there is Zombicide. This is more a chess game, baiting and lurking and setting up clever counters to dissuade attacks, and sure, if you stack factors in your favor you're likely to knock the other guy out... but did you really leave your combat master in a position where a little fodder ninja can kill him? Did you leave a gap in your lines where a Kunoichi can zip through and stab you in the face?

Be careful when listening to reviewers. Everyone wants to have an opinion and be a special snowflake, myself included, but you've got to make up your own mind.
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Jason McFarland
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glasswalker wrote:
So I am curious. All of the reviews posted here are negative. The most positive one was meeple leaf, and one of them liked it only with a rules rewrite, and the other reviewer didn't like it. Does anyone know of any reviewers that like this game?
I really want to like it, but frankly I can find no positive reviews at all, which is pretty concerning.


I watch unboxings, and I watch actual gameplay videos. I rarely watch a review unless there's nothing else. Granted, those are rare at the moment. But the problems I find with reviewers in general, not just with this game, is that they review a lot of games and don't have time to invest time in any one game. This game definitely needs a couple play throughs to see the subtle strategic nature of the game and of the dice. And I believe that's why the reviews have been negative in general, people just don't get it because they haven't played through it.
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While I unfortunately don't share the same feelings as you do about the game, I'd still like to help make it more fun for you because I'm just that kind of guy.

The main problem that some people are having with the dice is the limited options from what you can do after the dice cancellation process. I suggest that when you win, instead of choosing only from your pool of dice afterwards, how about also being able to choose from what the opponent rolled that hasn't been cancelled? This will give you another shot at that 1 element you're trying to get.

I'm no game designer so I have no idea how this would affect the game. I just know it'll increase your chances to do what you may want to.
 
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Denis Maddalena
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CharlieX3 wrote:
While I unfortunately don't share the same feelings as you do about the game, I'd still like to help make it more fun for you because I'm just that kind of guy.

The main problem that some people are having with the dice is the limited options from what you can do after the dice cancellation process. I suggest that when you win, instead of choosing only from your pool of dice afterwards, how about also being able to choose from what the opponent rolled that hasn't been cancelled? This will give you another shot at that 1 element you're trying to get.

I'm no game designer so I have no idea how this would affect the game. I just know it'll increase your chances to do what you may want to.


This was the original rule, actually, and was turned into its current form because if you rolled more dice yet still lost, it increased the odds of being killed or whatever. Simply put, rolling more dice and not as many as your opponent was bad, not good. Whoever rolls the most dice WILL WIN and get to choose results. The only way around it is by using certain Moon cards, either increasing your dice pool to above that of your opponent or using the cards that let the player with less dice choose results.
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I am having a hard time understanding the negative reviews of the dice system specifically; that the system is too complicated or not intuitive, or the model with the most dice wins (Tom Vasel's review).

I can understand when someone says that the system is too random, because as an attacker with an advantage your expectation is you would harm or kill your opponent (or that you'd have a great chance of doing so), and this system doesn't guarantee that. I can even appreciate when someone says your choices are limited after cancellations (especially since we played it wrong our first couple of play throughs of picking from all the dice pool).

But then really I think, this brings it closer to an actual simultaneous attack system, where you can imagine ninjas fighting each other with magic, tricks, and martial arts. For us, it actually emphasizes the elemental theme and magical nature of ninjas.

I called my wife a thug army one game because she kept rolling and selecting water, where she would move her opponent with her back to her army hidden between walls; it's like baiting someone to go into an alley to get beat up by a bunch of people.

Lastly, Tom Vasel's review... really didn't get that. I thought the icons were intuitive save for maybe spirit and void; the opposing maybe earth and air doesn't make sense. Still, sometimes numbers or dots are not the best option for dice and while yes, it's a d6, the immersion and mechanic associated with it (affinity, effects) though I think is worth it.

The randomness of course there's the other aspect of the game that helps mitigate that: positioning to get bonuses, and the moon cards.

Long story short, we are happy with the current system as it is; our only nit is the randomness of the result after cancellation, but we do like rolling (and re-rolling, helpful abilities/cards there) dice so we get over it quickly.
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eypyeash wrote:

This was the original rule, actually, and was turned into its current form because if you rolled more dice yet still lost, it increased the odds of being killed or whatever. Simply put, rolling more dice and not as many as your opponent was bad, not good. Whoever rolls the most dice WILL WIN and get to choose results. The only way around it is by using certain Moon cards, either increasing your dice pool to above that of your opponent or using the cards that let the player with less dice choose results.


Wow! I didn't know that. Thanks for enlightening me.

On another note, not pointing fingers at anybody specific but please respect the OP's wishes. He asked for advice on his variant let alone from people who share his same feelings towards the dice mechanic. If not, this is going to turn into the post I started that's already reached 3 pages.
 
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Denis Maddalena
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Speaking of which, where IS OP? He hasn't swung in to comment on the comments.
 
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Ron Red

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I've played with original and house rules my group is split on it but we have been having fun with the game, that's what counts
 
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Glad to hear you're enjoying the game!
 
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Hugues Richard
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What matters in life is not the triumph nor the struggle but the triumph by tie breaker.
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baliw wrote:
the opposing maybe earth and air doesn't make sense.

Would make more sense if it was called wind aka movement vs immobility. The last airbender could explain it to you better than I.

 
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Denis Maddalena
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Oninohugo wrote:
baliw wrote:
the opposing maybe earth and air doesn't make sense.

Would make more sense if it was called wind aka movement vs immobility. The last airbender could explain it to you better than I.



It's a common opposition based on basically the above. You could also imagine it as sturdy vs agile, ground vs flight, or several others I'm sure. This is hardly the first game to reference the opposition. There's a little game called Pokemon that introduced the concept to kids years ago.
 
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