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Subject: Etiquette? A few queries. rss

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Don Clarke
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I played once and quite liked it, but have a few queries broadly on etiquette and wondered if any experienced players have a view:

1. Shuffling. There's a lot. Could be an issue if one or more players dislike another player's shuffling style? Anyone with house rules on how to shuffle/ how many times to shuffle? Maybe the player to the left cuts your deck after you shuffle?

2. Pre-game deck analysis. I despise analysis paralysis. Anyone out there any house rules for length of time spent studying the setup before play begins? Newbies will need more time, and maybe hints on some easy combos?

3. Allied to 2., Time taken over purchases. More likely to be an issue with noobies? Suggested 30 second limit?

4. Trackable info. The number of victory points everyone has is easily trackable with a good memory or pen and paper, therefore my gaming group has a philosophy that if it's trackable let's just have it open. What about using a scoreboard to track everyone's VPs openly through the game? The only exception we have to this is Tigris and Euphrates where there are so many points being scored all the time, and there's so much to think about, that the hidden scoring works pleasantly to enhance the game experience.

 
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yangtze2000 wrote:
I played once and quite liked it, but have a few queries broadly on etiquette and wondered if any experienced players have a view:

1. Shuffling. There's a lot. Could be an issue if one or more players dislike another player's shuffling style? Anyone with house rules on how to shuffle/ how many times to shuffle? Maybe the player to the left cuts your deck after you shuffle?

2. Pre-game deck analysis. I despise analysis paralysis. Anyone out there any house rules for length of time spent studying the setup before play begins? Newbies will need more time, and maybe hints on some easy combos?

3. Allied to 2., Time taken over purchases. More likely to be an issue with noobies? Suggested 30 second limit?

4. Trackable info. The number of victory points everyone has is easily trackable with a good memory or pen and paper, therefore my gaming group has a philosophy that if it's trackable let's just have it open. What about using a scoreboard to track everyone's VPs openly through the game? The only exception we have to this is Tigris and Euphrates where there are so many points being scored all the time, and there's so much to think about, that the hidden scoring works pleasantly to enhance the game experience.



1 - Probably, but I just mock them if necessary

2 - Probably, but I just mock them if necessary

3 - Probably, but I just mock them if necessary

4 - Can if you want, doesn't seem beneficial. I know what you mean, but you always want the most points regardless, and you can clearly see when the game tips towards buying points.
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Ben Goulding
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yangtze2000 wrote:
1. Shuffling.


Hopefully any players should know how to reasonably shuffle a deck. I tend to just use a few overhand shuffles, maybe a quick riffle if my deck is big enough. One friend of mine deals her deck into five equal piles then stacks them back up. If one person actively dislikes another's style then you're just going to have to come to some agreement over how you do it, but remember that you're going to significantly increase the game-time (and stress at the table) if you stop to "verify" every shuffle.

yangtze2000 wrote:
2. Pre-game deck analysis.


I will recommend easy combos or obviously good cards if there are new players who might not be sure what to buy first. After laying the Kingdon out my girlfriend and I will usually spend 20 or 30 seconds looking over the cards and openly discussing what might go well with what while we shuffle our starting decks. Use a 20/30 second sand timer if it becomes an issue.

yangtze2000 wrote:
3. Time taken over purchases.


Hopefully people should have had enough time to look at their hand and figure out what they want to buy before their turn. If it's a problem, use a sand-timer.

yangtze2000 wrote:
4. What about using a scoreboard to track everyone's VPs openly through the game?


You can't do this with certain Victory cards. Gardens for example is worth 1 point for every 10 cards in your deck, so you can only count it at game end. Are you going to stop and recount all the Gardens when one is bought? Just leave scoring until the end. If you keep track of score as the game goes I think it would make the game really dull.
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Don Clarke
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Thanks for responses, chaps! I'll think I'll play next time with a mixture of mockery and sandtiming at the ready. Neither applied to noobies, of course.

The player to your right cuts your deck after a shuffle seems good to me too, to deflect any potential "call that a shuffle?" problems.

I'm still not sold on the scoring thing.

I accept your points about cards scored at the end, but you need to keep an eye on who's picking up the Provinces and Duchies. How are you going to know who to bash if you've forgotten who the leader is? I'd never use a pen and paper to track stuff in any game myself, I'm not that desperate to win, but my memory is rubbish. Besides, mental tracking of trackable data is too much like hard work if you're playing games for fun. San Juan, a similarish card game, has scoring out there in the open and that doesn't dull the experience. Similarly Citadels and others.

I think if all players were experienced it would lessen the desire for such a thing, but in that first game I was irritated by the unnecessary work the lack of open scoring caused. I'll leave it 'till I've played a few more games, perhaps, and see how I feel then, so I don't attract the "you've only played once so shut the funk up" criticism
 
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Salvador C. Majoral
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Another possibility would be to use a card-shuffler machine... does anybody know if there is any card-shuffler that can handle sleeved dominion cards? (without ruining them)
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Don Clarke
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I thought about that, but there's another thread about those suggesting they are very noisy, and also that a deck needs to run through them several times. Not practical for the number of shuffles needed in Dominion?
 
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David B
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You said you hate Analysis Paralysis. You realize suggestion 4 of making track able info open usually results in increased AP? FWIW, I am not a fan of excessive downtime or extreme AP, but some players go in the opposite direction and get pushy when players try to allot a totally reasonable amount of time to consider their options. Putting players on a 30 second timer is getting a tad close to that extreme.
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Salvador C. Majoral
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yangtze2000 wrote:
I thought about that, but there's another thread about those


where's that thread?
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yangtze2000 wrote:
Thanks for responses, chaps! I'll think I'll play next time with a mixture of mockery and sandtiming at the ready. Neither applied to noobies, of course.

The player to your right cuts your deck after a shuffle seems good to me too, to deflect any potential "call that a shuffle?" problems.

I'm still not sold on the scoring thing.

I accept your points about cards scored at the end, but you need to keep an eye on who's picking up the Provinces and Duchies. How are you going to know who to bash if you've forgotten who the leader is? I'd never use a pen and paper to track stuff in any game myself, I'm not that desperate to win, but my memory is rubbish. Besides, mental tracking of trackable data is too much like hard work if you're playing games for fun. San Juan, a similarish card game, has scoring out there in the open and that doesn't dull the experience. Similarly Citadels and others.

I think if all players were experienced it would lessen the desire for such a thing, but in that first game I was irritated by the unnecessary work the lack of open scoring caused. I'll leave it 'till I've played a few more games, perhaps, and see how I feel then, so I don't attract the "you've only played once so shut the funk up" criticism



There is not much "bash the leader" in the game. Only a few cards allow you to target a particular player. But if your group prefers open scoring, then play that way.
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Rick Teverbaugh
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Don't play with new players. Won't play with you if you use No. 4.
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Don Clarke
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Here's that shuffler thread Salvador:

https://boardgamegeek.com/thread/1495281/card-shuffler-domin...

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Adam Lucas
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I'm usually the one setting up the game so I hand stacks of cards to someone else to set up the supply. That way I expect people to be looking at the cards while I'm busy looking for stuff.

And if someone pulled out paper and a pen to track victory points then I would either throw in Gardens, Fairgrounds, or Duke for spite or wouldn't play at all.
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Don Clarke
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Larry Welborn wrote:
There is not much "bash the leader" in the game.


What about in a six player game where everyone has Militia and the leader doesn't have their Moat handy?

Rick wrote:
Won't play with you if you use No. 4.


No problem, but out of interest, why not?


 
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yangtze2000 wrote:
Larry Welborn wrote:
There is not much "bash the leader" in the game.


What about in a six player game where everyone has Militia and the leader doesn't have their Moat handy?

Rick wrote:
Won't play with you if you use No. 4.


No problem, but out of interest, why not?




Because I believe paying attention to what your foes have taken and their approximate point totals is one of the skills needed to be a good player. In your top case, the leader deserves to be bashed.
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Salvador C. Majoral
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Larry Welborn wrote:
Only a few cards allow you to target a particular player.


Tell us one of them.

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Svengaard wrote:

And if someone pulled out paper and a pen to track victory points then I would either throw in Gardens, Fairgrounds, or Duke for spite or wouldn't play at all.


Tracking victory points might slow the game down in a fast pace game like dominion. In my group, people that are caught intentionally cheating get hung from the nearest yardarm until the crows pick out at least an eye. This works but for some reason we find it hard to get people to join or group.
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yangtze2000 wrote:
What about in a six player game where everyone has Militia and the leader doesn't have their Moat handy?


As a two- or three-player game, Dominion is a lot more fun. If you regularly play with six, no wonder you're looking for ways to speed people's turns up!

If you have six people who need to all play Dominion at once, get a second set of base cards and split into two groups of 3. Everybody will be happier.
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salva wrote:
Larry Welborn wrote:
Only a few cards allow you to target a particular player.


Tell us one of them.



Possession.
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Don Clarke
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The game I played was a two-player game, but the guy that owns the game is getting the 6 player expansion so that more of the club can play. I'll probably get my own set at some point

I'm not particularly fond of memory games, or games where card counting is a pre-requisite for victory. I don't think either are skills, more aptitudes or tasks. I find both onerous in games. I'd certainly play Dominion with hidden scores no problem, it isn't that much of an issue. Nor would it bother me in the least if someone took notes during play, as long as it didn't slow their turn. I don't see how having notes is any different in effect to having a good memory. I just happen to think that for this game open scoring would actually enhance the experience. But each to their own
 
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Ben Goulding
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Quote:
Because I believe paying attention to what your foes have taken and their approximate point totals is one of the skills needed to be a good player.


I have to agree with this. For me part of the skill involved in Dominion is knowing when to buy Provinces and when to buy Duchies, and knowing when to buy the last one to end the game. If that information was left public and someone could look at my score and know absolutely they could buy a Province and win that to me would be very dull. I think you'd be removing a key part of what makes the game so good.

Also have to say that Dominion with 6 players is an awful drag. You'd be a lot better having two games with 3 players.
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Andrés Santiago Pérez-Bergquist
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Svengaard wrote:
salva wrote:
Larry Welborn wrote:
Only a few cards allow you to target a particular player.


Tell us one of them.



Possession.


No, there is no choice of who to target with Possession, and Possession doesn't negatively affect the player to the left barring a few specific interactions. Namely, it can use up Duration cards (or get you new ones) and can disrupt effects that stacked the top of your deck (or burn through junk put there by attacks like Bureaucrat). Plus, it gets you closer to cycling your deck, which is an effect you'd normally be charged for (Chancellor).
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Rick Teverbaugh
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Santiago wrote:
Svengaard wrote:
salva wrote:
Larry Welborn wrote:
Only a few cards allow you to target a particular player.


Tell us one of them.



Possession.


No, there is no choice of who to target with Possession, and Possession doesn't negatively affect the player to the left barring a few specific interactions. Namely, it can use up Duration cards (or get you new ones) and can disrupt effects that stacked the top of your deck (or burn through junk put there by attacks like Bureaucrat). Plus, it gets you closer to cycling your deck, which is an effect you'd normally be charged for (Chancellor).


I think I will have to side against your nit picking here. Possession does target a particular player. You just don't get to pick who that player is. But if the player to your left is the leader, then you target the leader in particular and nobody else. Sometimes Possession actually helps the player to your left but most times it hurts and in more ways than you mention.
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Svengaard wrote:
salva wrote:
Larry Welborn wrote:
Only a few cards allow you to target a particular player.


Tell us one of them.



Possession.


Possession is not an Attack card (it does not harm the player to your left, it benefits you). And, more to the point, you cannot choose who to target (the player to your left may be the... er... what's the opposite of leader??)

Any other card that supposedly targets a particular player?
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Don Clarke
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Opposite of leader? Er, wooden spoon monkey? I guess that's not a real thing, but I like the sound of it!
 
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salva wrote:
Possession is not an Attack card (it does not harm the player to your left...)
Not normally, but Dominion is a realm of special cases.

On your Possession turn, where I play your hand, I play Masquerade, and pass a Colony from your hand to the next player (me!), and pass you a Curse. 22 point swing. Ouch.

I know it's not at Attack card, but that's because it doesn't say Attack on it. I agree its effect is usually not too bad for the "victim".
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