Tylor Lilley
United States
Columbus
Ohio
flag msg tools
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
Here is a new rules question for you all courtesy of our 30th play of 100 swords since we received the game!

Say I play a sword like the one use sword that retired or vaporized itself after being played. It was still a sword that was played this turn. So can I play the Deja Sword Sword, whose text reads, "return a sword that was played his turn to your hand", in order to return the retired or vaporized sword? Going by the text it says nothing about the sword it returns still being in play but the combo between the one use sword and the Deja Sword Sword seemed to powerful to possibly be correct.

I look forward to your answers on this! Thanks!

EDIT: We have been given an official answer! Here's what it says:

Laboratory wrote:
The Deja Sword Sword is meant to interact with cards 'in play,' and not cards in the trophy pile or vaporized pile. I'll look over the rules and see how I can fit this in explicitly.


So it is only meant to work with Swords that are still in play when the Deja Sword Sword is played. Good to know!
 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Dave Marion
United States
New Jersey
flag msg tools
badge
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
Re: Can the Deja Sword Sword return a retired/vaporized sword?
Ooh that's a fantastic question. Here's my take on the situation, with thoughts from other games that end up retiring, vaporizing, and trashing cards or moving cards into other zones.

We need to define what it means to be Retired and Vaporized.
From the rulebook:
Quote:
Retire - Move a card to your trophy pile.

While this describes what the Retire action does, it does not define what the Trophy Pile/Retired Pile is.

From the rulebook:
Quote:
Trophy Pile - A players personal pile of trophies (monsters, items, and obstacles).

While this describes what the Trophy Pile is for, it does not define whether the Trophy Pile is considered an in-game zone.

From the rulebook:
Quote:
Vaporize - Move a card to the vaporized pile face-up (where it is no longer worth gold for any player).

Again, this describes what the Vaporize action does and its effect, but does not define what the Vaporized Pile actually is or whether it is considered an in-game zone.

I would argue that the Vaporized Pile is not a valid in-game zone. To Vaporize an item and move it to the Vaporized Pile is akin to ". I believe the intention of vaporize is "Remove this card from the game, a.k.a. put this card back in the box" and dissimilar to a term such as Exile from Magic: The Gathering or Destroy from DC: Deck-Building, in which the card remains intact in a defined zone yet out of play. Note that in DC: Deck-Building, the Destroyed Zone was essentially "Removed from the game." similar to the Vaporized Pile until the release of the Forever Evil expansion, which introduced cards that directly manipulated the Destroyed Pile.

There is already precedent that the Trophy Pile is a valid in-game zone. Other effects are capable of directly targeting cards in the Trophy Pile; i.e., Midas Sword from The Darkness Set (2M/1S/3G/2E, Effect: You may vaporize a card from your trophy pile to gain movement, strength, or energy equal to its gold.) and Haunted Sword from The Glowing Plasmapede's Set (1M/1S/3G/2E, Effect: You may vaporize a monster in your trophy pile to gain 3 strength.).

The cards involved in your question are:
Single-Use Sword from The Blue Mammoth Set (1M/4S/4G/3E, Effect: When played for strength, retire this card.)
Magic Sword Missile from The Darkness Set (1M/1S/1G/2E, Effect: You may vaporize this card to acquire, defeat, or clear a card in your room with 'darkness' in its name.)
Deja Sword Sword from The Darkness Set (2M/2S/2G/4E, Effect: Place another sword you've played this turn in your hand.)

I would rule that the Deja Sword Sword would be able to return the Single-Use Sword to your hand since it is capable of targeting a retired card in the Trophy Pile, but the Deja Sword Sword would be unable to return the Magic Sword Missile to your hand since the effect would fail to locate the card since it resides in an out-of-game zone.

On a side note, the Deja Sword Sword does seem overpowered. It generates 2 Strength on its own in addition to the Strength of whichever sword you are retrieving (in essence playing a second time) AND the effect of said retrieved and replayed sword. It feels like the Deja Sword Sword should be a 0M/0S card since it reproduces Strength and Effect. Or it could remain a 2M/2S card with the effect of retrieving from your discard into play a Vu Sword Sword (which, to my knowledge, has not been created).
 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Tylor Lilley
United States
Columbus
Ohio
flag msg tools
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
Re: Can the Deja Sword Sword return a retired/vaporized sword?
Thank you so much for your lengthy response! It's always nice to have someone put such time and effort into a reply to one of your questions.

That said, I'm afraid in this case your thinking did not cover all of the information and situations we have available to us, and so I think your conclusion is wrong. Here are a few thinks I think could be corrected:

FreeKnight wrote:
I would argue that the Vaporized Pile is not a valid in-game zone. To Vaporize an item and move it to the Vaporized Pile is akin to ". I believe the intention of vaporize is "Remove this card from the game, a.k.a. put this card back in the box" and dissimilar to a term such as Exile from Magic: The Gathering or Destroy from DC: Deck-Building, in which the card remains intact in a defined zone yet out of play. Note that in DC: Deck-Building, the Destroyed Zone was essentially "Removed from the game." similar to the Vaporized Pile until the release of the Forever Evil expansion, which introduced cards that directly manipulated the Destroyed Pile.

There is already precedent that the Trophy Pile is a valid in-game zone. Other effects are capable of directly targeting cards in the Trophy Pile; i.e., Midas Sword from The Darkness Set (2M/1S/3G/2E, Effect: You may vaporize a card from your trophy pile to gain movement, strength, or energy equal to its gold.) and Haunted Sword from The Glowing Plasmapede's Set (1M/1S/3G/2E, Effect: You may vaporize a monster in your trophy pile to gain 3 strength.).


This is ignoring two major cards that do interact with the vaporized zone: the Stash Spider and Grave Diggers (from the same Darkness expansion as most of these cards in question). Both of these take cards in the vaporized pile and bring them back into the game. This would seem to suggest that it IS a valid in game zone along side the trophy pile, and that you should be able to interact with it in the same way in this case.

FreeKnight wrote:
The cards involved in your question are:
Single-Use Sword from The Blue Mammoth Set (1M/4S/4G/3E, Effect: When played for strength, retire this card.)
Magic Sword Missile from The Darkness Set (1M/1S/1G/2E, Effect: You may vaporize this card to acquire, defeat, or clear a card in your room with 'darkness' in its name.)
Deja Sword Sword from The Darkness Set (2M/2S/2G/4E, Effect: Place another sword you've played this turn in your hand.)


This is a partial list of cards, as there are other cards like the Darkness Sword that this effect interacts with.

FreeKnight wrote:
I would rule that the Deja Sword Sword would be able to return the Single-Use Sword to your hand since it is capable of targeting a retired card in the Trophy Pile, but the Deja Sword Sword would be unable to return the Magic Sword Missile to your hand since the effect would fail to locate the card since it resides in an out-of-game zone.


As explained above, I believe the existence of cards that bring cards back from the Vaporized pile invalidates this justification for this conclusion.

FreeKnight wrote:
On a side note, the Deja Sword Sword does seem overpowered. It generates 2 Strength on its own in addition to the Strength of whichever sword you are retrieving (in essence playing a second time) AND the effect of said retrieved and replayed sword. It feels like the Deja Sword Sword should be a 0M/0S card since it reproduces Strength and Effect. Or it could remain a 2M/2S card with the effect of retrieving from your discard into play a Vu Sword Sword (which, to my knowledge, has not been created).


This is a side note, but yeah, we've found it to be one of the strongest swords in the game so far. Definitely the most beloved sword for whoever gets it, and the most jealousy-inducing sword for whoever doesn't in each of the games that have used it so far. I'm not a fan of power-level errata in my games, so I don't think it should be changed now, but I agree that it could have easily been a 1M/2S or maybe even a 1M/1S sword and still be powerful enough, especially if it CAN bring swords back from the trophy or vaporized pile as it seems to be able to.
 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Dave Marion
United States
New Jersey
flag msg tools
badge
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
Re: Can the Deja Sword Sword return a retired/vaporized sword?
Interesting. I didn't check all of the monsters. That's a good catch. If there are already cards that are able to interact with the Vaporized Pile then I revise my conclusion. As a valid in-game zone, the Deja Sword Sword should be able to retrieve a sword from the Vaporized Pile as long as the target sword was played from your hand this turn. Do I like that conclusion? Not really. As you pointed out, it makes the Deja Sword Sword extremely powerful since it is able to bring back into the game a one-shot powerful item. I think the design intention of the Deja Sword Sword was to interact with a sword still in the field of play. Had that been the wording "Place another sword from your field of play back into your hand" or even "Place another active sword you played this turn back into your hand" then this would be clear.


That said, until we receive an official ruling from Laboratory, I would say that each group should decide how to treat the sword prior to starting a game.

A) Choose to play it as written, where it is able to target a sword in any zone as long as that sword was played by you this turn.

B) Choose to play it as (possibly) intended, where it is able to target an active sword still in the field of play.

C) Choose to play it as one interpretation, where it is able to target a sword still in the field of play or in the retired zone (since that sword technically is still in your possession).
 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Tylor Lilley
United States
Columbus
Ohio
flag msg tools
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
Re: Can the Deja Sword Sword return a retired/vaporized sword?
FreeKnight wrote:
Interesting. I didn't check all of the monsters. That's a good catch.


I created a sortable/searchable list of all the cards to help out with this sort of thing in the future. Feel free to use it all you want! It's a Google Sheet you can find here: https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1bOrUDktOdAMYzNyFeRik...

FreeKnight wrote:
If there are already cards that are able to interact with the Vaporized Pile then I revise my conclusion. As a valid in-game zone, the Deja Sword Sword should be able to retrieve a sword from the Vaporized Pile as long as the target sword was played from your hand this turn. Do I like that conclusion? Not really. As you pointed out, it makes the Deja Sword Sword extremely powerful since it is able to bring back into the game a one-shot powerful item. I think the design intention of the Deja Sword Sword was to interact with a sword still in the field of play. Had that been the wording "Place another sword from your field of play back into your hand" or even "Place another active sword you played this turn back into your hand" then this would be clear.


That said, until we receive an official ruling from Laboratory, I would say that each group should decide how to treat the sword prior to starting a game.

A) Choose to play it as written, where it is able to target a sword in any zone as long as that sword was played by you this turn.

B) Choose to play it as (possibly) intended, where it is able to target an active sword still in the field of play.

C) Choose to play it as one interpretation, where it is able to target a sword still in the field of play or in the retired zone (since that sword technically is still in your possession).


Yeah, I'm kind of at the same spot as you are with this one for now. It seems like the intent was probably just the cards in play, and its certainly strong enough that way. Hopefully we can have Laboratory weigh in at some point and let us know what to do.
 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Laboratory
United States
Seattle
Washington
flag msg tools
publisher
Avatar
mbmbmbmb
Re: Can the Deja Sword Sword return a retired/vaporized sword?
Hey everyone, I'm going through rules questions today, so let's take a look at this. Version B is 'as intended.' The Deja Sword Sword is meant to interact with cards 'in play,' and not cards in the trophy pile or vaporized pile. I'll look over the rules and see how I can fit this in explicitly.

-Sam @ Laboratory
1 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Dave Marion
United States
New Jersey
flag msg tools
badge
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
Thanks for the clarification!
 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Front Page | Welcome | Contact | Privacy Policy | Terms of Service | Advertise | Support BGG | Feeds RSS
Geekdo, BoardGameGeek, the Geekdo logo, and the BoardGameGeek logo are trademarks of BoardGameGeek, LLC.