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Subject: Chapeled Big Money deck vs. non-chapeled deck? rss

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Folks say there's no such thing as "Chapel strategy". Yet, I never thought of the "Chapel strategy" as trimming your deck of as many lousy cards as possible, and then doing nothing else. I figured getting the cards to be able to buy what you need was implied. Definitions aside of how "chapel strategy" should be defined and whether or not it is one, I'm curious to know how a lean deck goes against a non-Chapel-ed deck.


Let's establish a trim deck doing Big Money as a control. Are there many ways for a non-chapel-ed deck to beat that? What you can do depends heavily on what's in the Kingdom deck, so I'm looking either for specific sets that can beat the first player with the given parameters, or what your observations and experiences are given all the setups you've played.
 
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No idea. My partner and I are casual players and will be considered complete novices here with our 27 plays against each other.

Although I've seen Donald X. saying that Chapel is mostly a game mode for experienced players, meaning everybody gets a copy and then proceeds to make the best trim deck they can. Although he might have been talking about the base game only. Link. It's interesting to view Chapel this way.

Barring that, I think maybe a strong Gardens deck can beat Chapel Big Money consistently without using Chapel?

Or maybe lots of good decks can beat Chapel Big Money, and it really requires something else on top to be competitive.

FWIW, next time we play, I'll seed the Kingdom with Chapel, and go for this strategy. Chances are fiancee won't even buy Chapel turn 1, so we'll get to see if she can pull off a win. And if she can, then somebody with 100 online plays can do it in his sleep.

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Conan Meriadoc
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A chapeled deck is generally more vulnerable to attacks, whereas a non-chapel deck will need some cards to compensate for its lower average card quality. Sifters (draw then discard cards) are good ways to do that, cards that gain silvers (or other 'reasonable quality' cards) work too. However, a Chapel + (Something) deck is quite strong, so you'll need quite the right combination of cards to manage that win.

Simulators (e.g. http://rspeer.github.io/dominiate/ ) usually do a good job of comparing strategies, they can be scripted to define their priorities.

It seems that a Chapel/Witch opening followed by big money is (marginally) beaten by a double Jack of All Trades opening followed by BM, for instance.
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Rahul Chandra
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Chapel Big Money is itself not so great, I think it took a long time before people even wrote a sim that had a winning rate over plain Big Money (and then something like 54-46?). The early turns where nothing is bought slowed it down, and the thin deck gets clogged faster with green cards.

Definitely it depends so much on what they can do afterwards. A rush like Gardens, or some attacks can work well against the thin deck - but sometimes you can even do things like Chapel into Gardens!

If Chapel is in the kingdom my default assumption is that I will use it, and then see where I can go from there. In a surprisingly fun online game, I opened Chapel/Potion going for University -> Saboteur, my opponent did the same, and then the game just turned into a mess of Sabotage - empty some piles with University and then start taking Estates from the Saboteurs.
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Everette Robertson
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If you're just looking at the base set, Thief is pretty much a hard counter to Chapel/Big Money. Thief is normally weak, but if it's in the kingdom, the Chapel/BM player will have to spend a lot of time replacing their Silvers and Golds rather than improving their deck or buying VP.

But in any case, Chapel/Big Money will rarely be the optimal strategy, because of the rest of the Kingdom. For example, Most decks will want at least one Market or Festival for the +Buy, if they're available, and playing Big Money in a Kingdom with Laboratory or Witch is asking for trouble. Even middling cards like Remodel or Cellar are usually worth picking up at least once on a turn when you don't hit $5.

Chapel is a very powerful card, but like all Dominion cards, even Chapel is sometimes skippable, especially in the later sets that have other powerful deck-thinners, like Forager, Ambassador, Remake, Urchin/Mercenary, and the like. It can also be skippable when other powerful combos are in the kingdom.
 
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marcory wrote:
But in any case, Chapel/Big Money will rarely be the optimal strategy, because of the rest of the Kingdom. For example, Most decks will want at least one Market or Festival for the +Buy, if they're available, and playing Big Money in a Kingdom with Laboratory or Witch is asking for trouble. Even middling cards like Remodel or Cellar are usually worth picking up at least once on a turn when you don't hit $5

So in this case, I go Chapel to trim my deck and go Big Money. You go straight for Labs and Witches ASAP without thinning your deck. You'll be able to hold your own?
 
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Rahul Chandra
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ackmondual wrote:

So in this case, I go Chapel to trim my deck and go Big Money. You go straight for Labs and Witches ASAP without thinning your deck. You'll be able to hold your own?


I expect Lab without Witch to beat you for sure, probably Witch alone and Lab + Witch also.
 
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Everette Robertson
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ackmondual wrote:
marcory wrote:
But in any case, Chapel/Big Money will rarely be the optimal strategy, because of the rest of the Kingdom. For example, Most decks will want at least one Market or Festival for the +Buy, if they're available, and playing Big Money in a Kingdom with Laboratory or Witch is asking for trouble. Even middling cards like Remodel or Cellar are usually worth picking up at least once on a turn when you don't hit $5

So in this case, I go Chapel to trim my deck and go Big Money. You go straight for Labs and Witches ASAP without thinning your deck. You'll be able to hold your own?


Reread my first sentence above: "Chapel/Big Money will rarely be the optimal strategy, because of the rest of the Kingdom." If Lab is on the board, Chapel/Lab will almost certainly beat Chapel/Big Money.
 
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Conan Meriadoc
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While Chapel/Big Money isn't really a suitable "control group" deck to compare deck efficiencies, most Chapel/(one terminal action)/Big Money strategies could be deemed efficient enough for that.

Based on a set of Chapel + 9 cards, before even attempting a non-chapel strategy, you need to ask yourself "Can my strategy beat all Chapel+(one card) combinations"?
 
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Vince Lupo
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In many of the campaign levels in dominion online, chapel strategies just aren't that good. Because of things like witches, gardens, and a couple other factors.
 
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