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Liberty or Death: The American Insurrection» Forums » General

Subject: Complexity rss

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Dr ?
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How rough is this to learn? I don't have any coin games. I have war of the ring and conflict of heroes---handled those fine...

I think I simply have to buy it anyway from the looks of things, but just wanted a heads up....
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Todd Carter
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I'm just learning the game myself. But from what I can tell, if you can handle War of the Rings, you can handle this. The playbook is really excellent at teaching how the game is played and once you get the basic flow, it's just a matter of figuring out what strategies actually work. And that's most of the fun. COIN games are a very different experience from all other games that I've tried. But, once they click, they're awesome. (And it becomes ten times easier to learn the next one.)

So, if you're feeling insecure, I say just download the Playbook and Rulebook from GMT, download the Vassal module and just see if you can figure it out.
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Mayor Jim
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Well, it does have a 40 page rule book and a 52 page playbook with 3 pages (and counting) of errata/clarifications. But, if you take your time I'm sure it's a doable learning experience.
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Mark Turner
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MayorJim wrote:
Well, it does have a 40 page rule book and a 52 page playbook with 3 pages (and counting) of errata/clarifications. But, if you take your time I'm sure it's a doable learning experience.


Wow. This I didn't realize. Sounds like a Labour of love.
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Mark Evans
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A large part of the rulebook is about how to run the non-player Artificial Intelligence. The playbook is a large book of examples of play, design notes, and historical commentary. The amount of pages is not directly related to how complex this game is.
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Stephen Stewart
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Green Eggs and Ham is like 40 pages...
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Peter
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I am totally new to COIN, but I have found learning the game fairly straightforward. There is an awesome tutorial "example of play" to follow, which goes through a year of play. So I would say learning the rules can be accomplished by a playing the tutorial and reading the rules. Learning to play well? Hmm I think that might take a while .

The "non player" charts are another level of complexity, but those aren't causing me too much problem -- I'm working through a solo game with the bots. Right now it is slow going, but as soon as I am familiar it will go a bunch faster.

In terms of how hard to learn I would say comparable to CoH. Perhaps a bit more complex based on having more actions, but not harder in concept.
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Scott Heenan
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MrMT wrote:
MayorJim wrote:
Well, it does have a 40 page rule book and a 52 page playbook with 3 pages (and counting) of errata/clarifications. But, if you take your time I'm sure it's a doable learning experience.


Wow. This I didn't realize. Sounds like a Labour of love.


As someone above mentioned, a lot of the rulebook deals with working the AI. In terms of complexity, it feels right around where the other COIN games are. The mechanics take a little bit of work to get down, but once you've got them you're good. And while each faction plays differently, there's at least a little overlap, so you aren't learning a whole new wheel with each faction. All in all, it isn't bad.

And the playbook goes into a lot of detail. It also includes a section dedicated to the AI. And another section dedicated to the historical background of the event cards.

Finally, there is the errata. Most of the errata is minor stuff. All in all, the rules aren't that bad at all.

And look at it this way: almost every COIN game has maintained its value. If you find it isn't your cup of tea, odds strongly favor that you'll at least break even selling it.
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Matt Brown
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ASLChampion wrote:
Green Eggs and Ham is like 40 pages...


Let's compare words per page.
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Jeffrey Smith
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matthean wrote:
ASLChampion wrote:
Green Eggs and Ham is like 40 pages...


Let's compare words per page.
True but everyone knows poetry is harder to read than prose.
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H.M. Woggle-Bug, T.E.
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MrMT wrote:
MayorJim wrote:
Well, it does have a 40 page rule book and a 52 page playbook with 3 pages (and counting) of errata/clarifications. But, if you take your time I'm sure it's a doable learning experience.


Wow. This I didn't realize. Sounds like a Labour of love.


What? THREE pages (and counting) of errata/clarifications sounds like a labour of love to you? Are you serious?

Looks like serious neglection to me. If your neighbor raised his kids like that, you'd probably contact the officials.

yuk
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Chris
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jbbnbsmith wrote:
matthean wrote:
ASLChampion wrote:
Green Eggs and Ham is like 40 pages...


Let's compare words per page.
True but everyone knows poetry is harder to read than prose.

My party trick is to read Green Eggs and Ham one breath per page... that'll still apply to LoD then, right?
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Oerjan Ariander
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livio wrote:
MrMT wrote:
MayorJim wrote:
Well, it does have a 40 page rule book and a 52 page playbook with 3 pages (and counting) of errata/clarifications. But, if you take your time I'm sure it's a doable learning experience.


Wow. This I didn't realize. Sounds like a Labour of love.


What? THREE pages (and counting) of errata/clarifications sounds like a labour of love to you? Are you serious?

Looks like serious neglection to me. If your neighbor raised his kids like that, you'd probably contact the officials.

yuk

More like one page of actual errata, one page of clarifications (including explaining what the phrase "unless otherwise specified" means), and the third page holds three spelling errors and one duplicate word ("Quebec City City"). But yes, I agree that even one page of errata is too much considering how much time we spent proofreading the game... soblue

/Oerjan
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Dave Capozzi
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d2necro wrote:
I am totally new to COIN, but I have found learning the game fairly straightforward. There is an awesome tutorial "example of play" to follow, which goes through a year of play. So I would say learning the rules can be accomplished by a playing the tutorial and reading the rules. Learning to play well? Hmm I think that might take a while .

The "non player" charts are another level of complexity, but those aren't causing me too much problem -- I'm working through a solo game with the bots. Right now it is slow going, but as soon as I am familiar it will go a bunch faster.

In terms of how hard to learn I would say comparable to CoH. Perhaps a bit more complex based on having more actions, but not harder in concept.


LoD is my first COIN game as well, and I agree completely with this.

The rule book is very clear and organized. The errata is mostly typos and a couple of clarifications.

The playbook is excellent. Run through the tutorial with the board set up after reading the rules.

I'm playing solo, so I'm learning the bots. That's probably the slowest part of the learning curve. But ive really only been able to sit for 30-40 min at a time so far. Yet, I'm having no trouble getting it. Overall, I'm finding the game to be very accessible with a bit of patience.

Edit: fixed some typos. Like 'boys' wen I meant 'bots'
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Anders Isaksen
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I will only be playing this game two player and with us both controlling two factions each, so basically I should be able to skip the whole BOT part of the rules right?

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Peter
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Sephakay wrote:
I will only be playing this game two player and with us both controlling two factions each, so basically I should be able to skip the whole BOT part of the rules right?
Yes, you can skip ALL the bot rules and charts if you don't need them. If you play two players and control everything by player choices you don't need bots.
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Mark Turner
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d2necro wrote:
Sephakay wrote:
I will only be playing this game two player and with us both controlling two factions each, so basically I should be able to skip the whole BOT part of the rules right?
Yes, you can skip ALL the bot rules and charts if you don't need them. If you play two players and control everything by player choices you don't need bots.


In Fire in the Lake, I found the bot charts to be quite useful as a beginner - they gave me a vague idea of what I should be doing.
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Cracky McCracken
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Warpiglet wrote:
How rough is this to learn? I don't have any coin games. I have war of the ring and conflict of heroes---handled those fine...

I think I simply have to buy it anyway from the looks of things, but just wanted a heads up....


The key to learning a COIN game from scratch is to get it setup in the first place. The scenario example in the playbook helps with that. Once you get the game set up than you can just flow through the example to physically play out a year of the game.

Than you'll get it. You'll actually understand how the game flows along. The rules are well done and the designers have apparently quit their day jobs and are standing by to answer rules queries.

Skip the Bots for your first play through so that you can focus on the differences in how the factions play and how the game actually works. Than you can work on the bots.

Beautiful game! GMT continues to out-do themselves. The board looks great.
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Jason Sherlock
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Cracky wrote:


The key to learning a COIN game from scratch is to get it setup in the first place. The scenario example in the playbook helps with that. Once you get the game set up than you can just flow through the example to physically play out a year of the game.

Than you'll get it. You'll actually understand how the game flows along. The rules are well done and the designers have apparently quit their day jobs and are standing by to answer rules queries.


I think that is good advice for any of Volko's designs (including Labyrinth; I don't have any experience with Wilderness War, but it wouldn't surprise me).
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Drake Coker
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This one is especially "easy" to learn solo compared to the other COIN games I've played. The two sides (two factions each) have symmetric victory conditions which makes understanding what to pursue while learning the game so much easier.

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Max DuBoff
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Olvenskol wrote:
This one is especially "easy" to learn solo compared to the other COIN games I've played. The two sides (two factions each) have symmetric victory conditions which makes understanding what to pursue while learning the game so much easier.



Only the first tier is symmetric by side, so the actual victory conditions are deceptively different, but still, fair point.
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Dr ?
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Well I dealt with my complexity concerns and preordered it...it's going to be fun...
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Mayor Jim
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Warpiglet wrote:
Well I dealt with my complexity concerns and preordered it...it's going to be fun...

I did the same...and actually, there isn't as much errata/clarifications as I first thought wow Now just waiting for the darn thing to arrive!
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Dr ?
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I ordered from my flgs...wondering how long until they get it. Anyone know?
 
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