Josiah Fiscus
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single sentences wrote:
bjlillo wrote:
Good work, Federal Reserve.

good job capitalism


It is my contention that on virtually every political topic, both sides agree on what the ultimate goal should be, and yet take diametrically opposed methods of getting there.

•We have mass shootings. We all agree this is bad. "Obviously we need more guns in the hands of law abiding citizens." "Obviously we need fewer guns and more restrictions."

•There is serious wealth inequality. We all agree this is bad. See the quote above.

•Terrorism is a threat to our people and our nation. We all agree this is bad. "We need to just stay out of the Middle East and stop making them hate us." "We need to get in there and defeat ISIS once and for all."

And that's just a few examples.

Politics get a lot MORE complicated when the goals aren't aligned. But in many cases, we seek the same end result.

Why do you supppose this is the case?


My best guess is that the fact that we have "mixed" philosophies on these topics as a nation (e.g., we are neither purely economically capitalist nor purely economically socialist) and yet still don't have this perfect utopia leads people to want to push towards one extreme or the other. Or we have "some gun control" and it isn't working, so we all agree change is needed and one side stakes out the "more" position and one side stakes out the "less" position. Perhaps it's just a logical necessity given the current state of things.

It does make me wish for more... well... I won't say extremism, but let's say idealism in terms of policy. Where would we be with a fully Libertarian president and congress? I don't know, but the positive or negative results would surely speak for themselves, wouldn't they? Might we learn something?
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Boaty McBoatface
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Because in truth neither party represents the people, they represent the same constituents, media Moguls, Wall Street and big business.

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Josiah Fiscus
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slatersteven wrote:
Because in truth neither party represents the people, they represent the same constituents, media Moguls, Wall Street and big business.



I agree, but I'm not talking about the party platforms themselves. I'm talking about individual people. Neither BJ nor Casey is being paid by Wall Street or media moguls to express the views they have in these forums.
 
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Peter Johnsson
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happyjosiah wrote:
slatersteven wrote:
Because in truth neither party represents the people, they represent the same constituents, media Moguls, Wall Street and big business.



I agree, but I'm not talking about the party platforms themselves. I'm talking about individual people. Neither BJ nor Casey is being paid by Wall Street or media moguls to express the views they have in these forums.


Man, you don't, like, totally know that they don't. ninja
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Boaty McBoatface
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happyjosiah wrote:
slatersteven wrote:
Because in truth neither party represents the people, they represent the same constituents, media Moguls, Wall Street and big business.



I agree, but I'm not talking about the party platforms themselves. I'm talking about individual people. Neither BJ nor Casey is being paid by Wall Street or media moguls to express the views they have in these forums.
True, but they are being informed by their mouth pieces.

You only have to look at the way some posters do not actually bother to check the facts behind the latest "SHOCK GASP HORROR PROBE!!!", or the use of pretty legit web sites.

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fightcitymayor
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happyjosiah wrote:
It does make me wish for more... well... I won't say extremism, but let's say idealism in terms of policy. Where would we be with a fully Libertarian president and congress? I don't know, but the positive or negative results would surely speak for themselves, wouldn't they? Might we learn something?
But isn't that the actual history of mankind and politics?

* We elect someone who claims to represent "Side A"
* The pendulum swings to "Side A" until we find cracks in their method
* Then we elect "Side B"
* Then the pendulum swings over to "Side B" until we find cracks in that method
* Rinse & Repeat

It's been the political process since humanity came down from the trees and decided to work together. In the USA, the founders designed the process to make it very difficult for "Side A" to be in perpetual control, thus things move somewhat more slowly & deliberately, but seemingly always between two poles.

p.s.
Two Poles:

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Chad Ellis
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In some cases we don't actually want the same thing. For example, on issues like prayer in schools, abortion and same-sex marriage there's genuine disagreement about what is a desirable end state. In others there's partial agreement and partial disagreement -- for example, when we talk about size of government part of the disagreement is over how best to achieve certain social goals (e.g. less poverty) but part isn't.

In others I think you're right; we agree on at least a lot of what would be a good result but not on how to get there. I think this is probably because so many problems are sufficiently complex that ideology and worldview tends to dominate our thinking about what would work.

Take debates on minimum wage. The evidence on minimum wage is mixed; there is no unarguably wrong side (like I would say there is on the debate of whether abstinence-only or comprehensive sex ed is more effective at delaying sexual activity and reducing STIs and teen pregnancies). In that circumstance, worldview is likely to play a dominant role in which side we find plausible. I can explain all my reasons for supporting a (modestly) higher minimum wage and BJ can explain his for why he thinks a minimum wage is counter-productive, but why we find those reasons compelling has probably less to do with objective strength than we like to think.
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Junior McSpiffy
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From what I've seen, the main difference is the values that underpin people's desires define the methods for how they want to get to an end. The most basic of these that I've seen is individuality vs collectivism.

A libertarian wants to see poverty end. Their values are driven by a strong sense of individualism and self-reliance. Their vision of an end to poverty centers around providing opportunities for everyone to have access to the means to thrive.

A progressive wants to see poverty end. Their values are driven by a strong sense of social obligation and community. Their vision of an end to poverty centers around providing the goods and services that some cannot provide for themselves.

Both groups want the same end in mind, but their values and priorities define the methodology of how they look to get to that end. Both sides have strengths and weaknesses, but those weaknesses are often ones people are willing to accept because they don't affect the main value that drives their actions.
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casey r lowe
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bjlillo wrote:
happyjosiah wrote:
slatersteven wrote:
Because in truth neither party represents the people, they represent the same constituents, media Moguls, Wall Street and big business.



I agree, but I'm not talking about the party platforms themselves. I'm talking about individual people. Neither BJ nor Casey is being paid by Wall Street or media moguls to express the views they have in these forums.


You losers don't get paid for this?

i get paid in happiness
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In Time
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I agree with what was said above (pretty much all of it). I wish there was a way of separating those "social issues" (prayer in school,homosexual marriage, abortion) from economic issues. Then everyone could vote and work together to solve the economic issues without annoyance for the other side or those "bigots/heathens/racists/atheists" i think it would help the U.S. Achieve huge goals!
Maybe we could think of another way to address the social issues such as voting on then every 4 years (along with president but separate) by popular vote, or ?? Idk?? But I believe the parties would work together so much better if social issues weren't part of the parties.
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Boaty McBoatface
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single sentences wrote:
bjlillo wrote:
happyjosiah wrote:
slatersteven wrote:
Because in truth neither party represents the people, they represent the same constituents, media Moguls, Wall Street and big business.



I agree, but I'm not talking about the party platforms themselves. I'm talking about individual people. Neither BJ nor Casey is being paid by Wall Street or media moguls to express the views they have in these forums.


You losers don't get paid for this?

i get paid in happiness
Thats the wages of sin idiot.
 
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Bat Profile
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bjlillo wrote:


You losers don't get paid for this?


I don't get paid but I sure do profit.
 
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Seth Brown
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I understand that when there are different goals, sometimes bitter polarization is inevitable. But it does surprise and disappoint me that people can't have more rational discourse in those cases where they are goal-aligned, even if they disagree how best to achieve said goals. It seems like you ought to be able to at least take baby steps that inch towards the goals in such obvious ways that both sides would support them. But it seems like tribalism is rife, and people are more invested in achieving the goals THE RIGHT WAY than in the goals themselves.
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Frank F
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Ignorance, superstition and fear. Especially when it is spread for the benefit of a few at the expense of the many.
 
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