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Subject: Aborting evil rss

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Boaty McBoatface
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Here is one reason I am against the idea of killing evil babies.

Who gets to decide which people are so evil, they need to be killed before they commit their evil?

Great so you think it's OK to go back in time and kill baby Hitler (I think we can all agree he was evil).

But say a descended of the victims of the trail of tears decide Andrew Jackson is to evil to live, or the may flower pilgrims?

It's a sill;y question, but I am intrigued by it's moral relativism. By the fact I suspect that most who would go "YAY kill baby Hitler" would whine like children if their cultural hero (with a few skeletons in their closet) was killed as an evil baby.
 
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casey r lowe
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aborting evil babies - whered you get that crazy idea from
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Boaty McBoatface
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single sentences wrote:
aborting evil babies - whered you get that crazy idea from
A nutter.
 
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Mac Mcleod
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single sentences wrote:
aborting evil babies - whered you get that crazy idea from


It was a question asked to ben carson.

When he said he was against aborting any baby, the person said something like, "So you are pro hitler!"

As slater said... a nutter.

Note... there is no godwin foul in play. Use of hitler is appropriate in this discussion!
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casey r lowe
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maxo-texas wrote:
single sentences wrote:
aborting evil babies - whered you get that crazy idea from


It was a question asked to ben carson.

When he said he was against aborting any baby, the person said something like, "So you are pro hitler!"

As slater said... a nutter.

Note... there is no godwin foul in play. Use of hitler is appropriate in this discussion!

but jeb bush brought up the issue of aborting baby hitler
 
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Seth Brown
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I mean, this is basically what the movie Minority Report was about, right? Pre-Crime?
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Osirus wrote:
I mean, this is basically what the movie Minority Report was about, right? Pre-Crime?

It started as a story by Philip K. Dick; read it and you won't be disappointed.
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slatersteven wrote:

Who gets to decide which people are so evil, they need to be killed before they commit their evil?



Drew & bj think they get to decide all kinds of shit for us so make it them.
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Would it be interesting to know how the world would be if Hitler did not exist?
There are ideas about what could have been if Hitler won the war, but how about if he never existed?
I'm not a fan of him, part of my family was murdered in concentratin camps, just thought if maybe something good of the world today might be missing in case he didn't exist.
Is there something good today, which would not be there without him?
Just playing with thoughts, but I don't have an answer.
 
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Chengkai Yang
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Osirus wrote:
I mean, this is basically what the movie Minority Report was about, right? Pre-Crime?


A 40k quote comes to mind: "There is no such thing as innocence, only degrees of guilt"
 
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Andy Beaton
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being wrote:
Would it be interesting to know how the world would be if Hitler did not exist?
There are ideas about what could have been if Hitler won the war, but how about if he never existed?
I'm not a fan of him, part of my family was murdered in concentratin camps, just thought if maybe something good of the world today might be missing in case he didn't exist.
Is there something good today, which would not be there without him?
Just playing with thoughts, but I don't have an answer.


The exploration of space got a 50 year boost from German military rocketry. I'm told that the "medical research" on freezing, hypoxia and starvation is useful but unreproducible by civilized human beings. But really, nothing worth a billionth of the misery he inflicted.
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James King
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slatersteven wrote:
Here is one reason I am against the idea of killing evil babies.

Who gets to decide which people are so evil, they need to be killed before they commit their evil?

Great so you think it's OK to go back in time and kill baby Hitler (I think we can all agree he was evil).

But say a descended of the victims of the trail of tears decide Andrew Jackson is to evil to live, or the Mayflower pilgrims?

It's a sill;y question, but I am intrigued by it's moral relativism. By the fact I suspect that most who would go "YAY kill baby Hitler" would whine like children if their cultural hero (with a few skeletons in their closet) was killed as an evil baby.

False issue. All a time traveler would have to do is to kill Hitler's father before Hitler was ever conceived.

 
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Andy Beaton
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ShreveportLAGamer wrote:


slatersteven wrote:
Here is one reason I am against the idea of killing evil babies.

Who gets to decide which people are so evil, they need to be killed before they commit their evil?

Great so you think it's OK to go back in time and kill baby Hitler (I think we can all agree he was evil).

But say a descended of the victims of the trail of tears decide Andrew Jackson is to evil to live, or the Mayflower pilgrims?

It's a sill;y question, but I am intrigued by it's moral relativism. By the fact I suspect that most who would go "YAY kill baby Hitler" would whine like children if their cultural hero (with a few skeletons in their closet) was killed as an evil baby.

False issue. All a time traveler would have to do is to kill Hitler's father before Hitler was ever conceived.



Or dress up like a Hasidim and buy a bunch of mediocre watercolours.
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Boaty McBoatface
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being wrote:
Would it be interesting to know how the world would be if Hitler did not exist?
There are ideas about what could have been if Hitler won the war, but how about if he never existed?
I'm not a fan of him, part of my family was murdered in concentratin camps, just thought if maybe something good of the world today might be missing in case he didn't exist.
Is there something good today, which would not be there without him?
Just playing with thoughts, but I don't have an answer.
The existence of Israel might not have come about, or at least been delayed.

The collapse of the British and French empires.

The rise of the USA as the worlds greatest power.

All of these owe something to WW2 (and thus Hitler), also our revulsion of anti-antisemitism (and racism in general) can be said to really stem from the Nazis (as we saw what it ultimately means).

However (as I said earlier) most likely Hitler would have been replaced, his was not a loan voice, it might not have been a German but there was (in the post WW1 world) a lot of anti-antisemitism, and eugenicists thinking.
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Boaty McBoatface
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anonphilosophy wrote:
Whose definition of "evil" do we use?
The one were killing 11 million innocent people is evil, simples.
 
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Boaty McBoatface
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ShreveportLAGamer wrote:


slatersteven wrote:
Here is one reason I am against the idea of killing evil babies.

Who gets to decide which people are so evil, they need to be killed before they commit their evil?

Great so you think it's OK to go back in time and kill baby Hitler (I think we can all agree he was evil).

But say a descended of the victims of the trail of tears decide Andrew Jackson is to evil to live, or the Mayflower pilgrims?

It's a sill;y question, but I am intrigued by it's moral relativism. By the fact I suspect that most who would go "YAY kill baby Hitler" would whine like children if their cultural hero (with a few skeletons in their closet) was killed as an evil baby.

False issue. All a time traveler would have to do is to kill Hitler's father before Hitler was ever conceived.

Assuming the man we think was Hitlers father was.
 
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Boaty McBoatface
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aiabx wrote:
ShreveportLAGamer wrote:


slatersteven wrote:
Here is one reason I am against the idea of killing evil babies.

Who gets to decide which people are so evil, they need to be killed before they commit their evil?

Great so you think it's OK to go back in time and kill baby Hitler (I think we can all agree he was evil).

But say a descended of the victims of the trail of tears decide Andrew Jackson is to evil to live, or the Mayflower pilgrims?

It's a sill;y question, but I am intrigued by it's moral relativism. By the fact I suspect that most who would go "YAY kill baby Hitler" would whine like children if their cultural hero (with a few skeletons in their closet) was killed as an evil baby.

False issue. All a time traveler would have to do is to kill Hitler's father before Hitler was ever conceived.



Or dress up like a Hasidim and buy a bunch of mediocre watercolours.
Ironically (?) that would be a more workable (and moral) solution.
 
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James King
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aiabx wrote:
ShreveportLAGamer wrote:
slatersteven wrote:
Here is one reason I am against the idea of killing evil babies.

Who gets to decide which people are so evil, they need to be killed before they commit their evil?

Great so you think it's OK to go back in time and kill baby Hitler (I think we can all agree he was evil).

But say a descended of the victims of the trail of tears decide Andrew Jackson is to evil to live, or the Mayflower pilgrims?

It's a sill;y question, but I am intrigued by it's moral relativism. By the fact I suspect that most who would go "YAY kill baby Hitler" would whine like children if their cultural hero (with a few skeletons in their closet) was killed as an evil baby.

False issue. All a time traveler would have to do is to kill Hitler's father before Hitler was ever conceived.

Or dress up like a Hasidim and buy a bunch of mediocre watercolours.

That effort would require quite an ongoing undertaking but alas, would not suffice enough to detour Hitler entirely from persuing political activity after Germany's loss of the first World War (in which he participated). *However*, the course of history might well have been offset enough by then that Hitler might not have had that transformational epiphany of an experience after being temporarily blinded by mustard gas in the trenches of the German frontlines.


 
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Suppose that baby Hitler's mother decided to abort baby Hitler. Not because he would grow up to be a killer but simply because she didn't want to have a kid. Would that be okay?
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James King
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Gialmere wrote:
Suppose that baby Hitler's mother decided to abort baby Hitler. Not because he would grow up to be a killer but simply because she didn't want to have a kid. Would that be okay?

Since Adolt's mother was married and since the pregnancy was the result of consentual sex, there would naturally have to be a compelling reason for Hitler's mother to even consider abortion. Moreover, if her preganancy was the result of consentual sex, she would have to consider discussing this with her husband regardless of whatever reason she might consider having an abortion.

So, your example is too sketchy for anybody to make an informed decision about.




 
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Boaty McBoatface
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ShreveportLAGamer wrote:


Gialmere wrote:
Suppose that baby Hitler's mother decided to abort baby Hitler. Not because he would grow up to be a killer but simply because she didn't want to have a kid. Would that be okay?

Since Adolt's mother was married and since the pregnancy was the result of consentual sex, there would naturally have to be a compelling reason for Hitler's mother to even consider abortion. Moreover, if her preganancy was the result of consentual sex, she would have to consider discussing this with her husband regardless of whatever reason she might consider having an abortion.

So, your example is too sketchy for anybody to make an informed decision about.




Yes, because abortion is that hard to get now.
 
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James King
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The Cinematic Origin of the Notion of Retro-Aborting Evil


single sentences wrote:
aborting evil babies - where'd you get that crazy idea from?

Actually, the idea is *retro-aborting pregnancies of future evil people*.

The first time that I'm aware that this notion was first brought up was in the classic 1971 movie, "Escape from the Planet of the Apes", the second sequel to the original 1968 movie, "Planet of the Apes".




In "Escape", Zira and Cornelius, the two chimpanzees who helped Colonel George Taylor in "Planet" and Lieutenant James Brent (James Franciscus) in "Beneath The Planet Of The Apes", have accompanied Dr. Milo, a colleague of theirs who followed up on Taylor's story about his spaceship's splashing down and sinking in the Forbidden Zone by launching an expedition which located and raised it to the surface and managed to get it working again. Their original intended purpose: to advance scientific knowledge and to challenge their civilization's more backward notions. (These events are happening off-screen and aren't shown toward the end of "Beneath".) Their inaugural flight aboard Taylor's ship, however, is interrupted by events happening beneath their world where the gorilla army has invaded the underground realm of the human mutants and a mortally-wounded Colonel Taylor has given up all hope of restoring human civilization after his primitive human mate, Nova, and fellow astronaut, Lieutenant Brent, are killed by the gorillas. In the final moments of his life, Taylor does the unthinkable -- what he originally intended to prevent from happening: He detonates the mutants' Alpha-Omega bomb, a surviving atomic ultimate weapon whose detonation would literally destroy the entire Earth. (Although plans for such a weapon are alleged to actually exist, it's believed that no world power would construct it because of the inevitable fear that it could accidentally be detonated.)

The video below was created by fans of "Escape" in which they recreated the original scripted opening of the film that was never filmed but which gives some much needed context for the script excerpt which follows (that mentions that "What if...?" scenario about killing Hitler in infancy).






After going back in time nearly 2,000 years to the Earth of 1973, Zira and Cornelius are at first welcomed as visitors from the future. However, the President's science advisor, Dr. Otto Hasslein, isn't so sure about them. He ponders the question: Are they merely visitors from the future -- or could they actually be invaders? After all, he noted that during the hearings before the Commission of Inquiry, Zira had abruptly altered what she had originally begun to say about having been a trained veterinarian who treated the dumb, animal-like humans of her time. (Fearing for their own lives as well as for their own unborn child, Cornelius and Zira have purposefully withheld their knowledge about Earth's ultimate fate up to this time.)

After Zira later reveals her pregnancy to him, Dr. Hasslein plies her with wine -- which she's unfamiliar with -- in order to get her to talk and reveal more about how and why they came to be there. Unbeknownst to Zira, Dr. Hasslein is secretly recording their conversation.




Dr. Otto Hasslein: "How long have you known [that you were pregnant]?"

Zira: "Since well before the war."

Dr. Otto Hasslein: "Who won your war?"

Zira: "It wasn't 'our war'. It was the *gorillas' war*. Chimpanzees are passi-- *pacifists*. We stayed behind. We never saw the enemy."

Dr. Otto Hasslein: "But which side won?"

Zira: "Neither."

Dr. Otto Hasslein: "But how do you know that if you weren't there, Zira?"

Zira: "Because when we were in space, we saw... a bright, white, blinding light. And then we saw the rim of the Earth.... melt. Then there was a tornado in the sky. Whooo..... Oh, I feel magnificently sleepy."

Dr. Otto Hasslein: "The date meter on the spaceship?"

Zira: "Uh-hmmm?"

Dr. Otto Hasslein: "What year did it read after Earth's destruction?"

Zira: "1973."

Dr. Otto Hasslein: "And before the white light and the tornado?"

Zira: "Thirty-nine-fifty.... something."

____________________________________________



[The scene shifts now to the Oval Office of the U.S. President at the White House where Dr. Otto Hasslein has just replayed the audiotape of that secretly-recorded conversation.]



Dr. Otto Hasslein: "So, Mr. President, you now have evidence that one day that talking apes will dominate this Earth and eventually destroy it by 3950-something."



The President: "I doubt that we shall still be in office by then. And according to the NASA experts who are still subjecting the spaceship to microscopic scrutiny, the precise year of what you merely infer to be Earth's destruction is recorded on the flight synthesizer as 3955 -- A.D., presumably. Now, what do you expect me and the United Nations -- though not necessarily in that order -- to do about it? Alter what you believe to be the course of the future by slaughtering two innocents? Or rather three, now that one of them is pregnant? Herod tried that, and Christ survived."

Dr. Otto Hasslein: "Mr. President, Herod lacked our facilities."

The President: "He also became very unpopular -- *historically unpopular*. And we don't want that to happen, do we?"

Dr. Otto Hasslein: "Are you actually saying -- "

The President: "I am saying that our two visitors seem to be very charming peaceful people -- or rather creatures -- and that the voters love them."

Dr. Otto Hasslein: "Do you want them and their progeny to dominate the world, Mr. President?"

The President: "Well, not at the next election, no. But one day, if the progeny turn out as well as the parents, who knows, they may do a better job of it than we have."

Dr. Otto Hasslein: "By destroying the world?"

The President: "Are you sure that what they saw destroyed was the world?"

Dr. Otto Hasslein: "Well, aren't you?"

The President: "I consider it dispassionately as a possibility, not hysterically as a fact."

Dr. Otto Hasslein: "Mr. President, we have their own testimony that they [the apes] provoked the war."

The President: "And they seemed to have provoked you pretty thoroughly into the bargain. I'm not saying that you're wrong, Dr. Hasslein, but I am saying that before I have them shot against the wall, I want convincing evidence that the handwriting on the wall is calculably true. Now, convince me."



Dr. Otto Hasslein: "By their own testimony, we know that apes one day will acquire the power of intelligent speech. By Zira's testimony, we know that she's pregnant with child. By my own testimony, we know that it's genetically possible for this child provided, of course, always that we permit its birth to bear or beget a talking ape by a dumb one in a present-day jungle or a present-day zoo."

The President: "But do you truly believe that by deliberate present-day action, we can neutralize that possibility, that we can alter the future?"

Dr. Otto Hasslein: "Yes, Mr. President, I do."

The President: "Do you also believe that we should? Given the power to alter the future, have we the right to use it?"

Dr. Otto Hasslein: "I don't know. I've wrestled with this, Mr. President. I just don't know. How many futures are there? Which future has God -- if there is a God -- chosen for Man's destiny? If I urge the destruction of these two apes, am I defying God's will or obeying it? Am I his enemy or his instrument?"



The President: "An assassin would say the latter. Do you approve of assassination?"

Dr. Otto Hasslein: "Well, we condoned the attempted assassination of Hitler because he was evil."

The President: "Yes, but would we have approved killing him in babyhood when he was still innocent? Or killing his mother when he was still in her womb? Or slaughtering his remote ancestors? We have no proof, Hasslein, that these apes are evil."

Dr. Otto Hasslein: "Mr. President, there are very strong indications."

The President: "Such as?"

Dr. Otto Hasslein: "There were hesitancies and small discrepancies in their answers to the Commission which suggests to me that if they were properly interrogated -- "

The President: "Are you suggesting that they were improperly interrogated?"

Dr. Otto Hasslein: "Let us say, *unprofessionally*."

The President: "You want it professional?"

Dr. Otto Hasslein: "The full works, Mr. President."

The President: "Tell that to the Commission. I'll abide by their findings."


______________________________________________



Amazingly, that "Escape" script excerpt above did raise the philosophical questions surrounding the ethics of aborting a future would-be evil dictator like Adolf Hitler. And although the film didn't attempt to answer those questions outright, it was never meant to; it was meant to prompt us, the members of the audience, to ponder and answer those questions for ourselves.


Thirteen years later in 1984, the first "Terminator" movie dealt with a similar premise: The Terminator robot time-traveled from the future to the past in order to prevent the birth of the human resistance leader, John Connor. Of course, the machines did not weigh the moral consequences of altering the past because their motivation was more primal: sheer survival from ultimately be conquered by humans.


 
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