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Canadian Crucible: Brigade Fortress at Norrey» Forums » Rules

Subject: Trying to figure out Op Sheets rss

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Ran Stu
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Just getting into the game and finding difficulty understand Op Sheets. I have played lots of ATS, Lock n' Load, Band of Brother type games but the Op Sheets is difficult to grasp for me. Part of the problem is the terminology. I simply don't understand the definitions of the words. I should say I really like the concept of Op Sheets.

I am using the latest rules. First I am stuck on 6.9b. "An Element is any number of units of any type from a single formation that is subject to either Battalion or Vehicle Morale".

Ok, here is what I don't get. What is a single formation, what's not? What is a Battalion? and what is battalion or vehicle morale? Even though the rules in 3.1 say Vehicles and Weapon units have morale, they don't say how much and only infantry platoons/MG have morale marked on the counters in the graphic explanation and they are platoons. I see nothing else in the Unit and Marker Explanations showing morale.

Then the rules go on and talk about regimental AT guns, Weapons companies, Weapons battalions, and scout platoons. Then on to three companies, each from a different formation, would have a size of three. Three what?

Going on. An infantry battalion, two tank platoons from a single company, and a AT gun from a regimental weapons section would have a size of two. No clue what all this means. I thought the rules were talking about units?

And for staff Modifiers ...at least one whole battalion (all parts not eliminated) ???? Even the example isn't clear to me. "a full infantry battalion would normally get a size of 1 but since it has a staff attached the size is zero". Where did the staff come from? This is the first time that word is used.

Finally and I am only on page 6. The weighted turns isn't clear. "Before checking any Op Sheets for implementation each command phase, add a number of marks to each sheet's tally. The number of marks...depends on the condition of the units in each Op Sheet's Task organization". So if I have 3 unassigned units I give them 3 or 3x3? If I am making out a Op sheet aren't the units unassigned to start with because they haven't been implemented yet? How does a unit become assigned when I have not put them in the game because the Op sheet is not implemented?

Do I need to be military trained to play this game? \

Boy, I hesitated like hell to write this as I feel so dumb doing it. I like to think I can play most of these type of games but I am stumped here. I don't blame anyone if they don't help with this but I can't really believe I am alone in this.

Anyway, greatly appreciate any help. I watch the videos on youtube but he talks like the rule book.

I wish there were some examples. Event he example in the book assumes too much knowledge of regiments and battalions.
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Mike Brewer
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I actually have a huge amount of sympathy with this post.

Let me try to show you where you can find the answers to these questions. (The wider point you raise is whether TCS assumes too much knowledge of how WWII armies were organised).

Quote:
"An Element is any number of units of any type from a single formation that is subject to either Battalion or Vehicle Morale". Ok, here is what I don't get. What is a single formation, what's not? What is a Battalion? and what is battalion or vehicle morale?


The Op Sheets want you to work out the "size" of the force on that OpSheet. Size here does not mean number of men/tanks, but is an abstracted sense of how complicated it would be to assemble this force into a single fighting unit. So it is harder to give orders to 1 company from each of three different battalions than it is to give orders to 3 companies from the same battalion.

A force's size is equal to the number of elements. The larger the size, the longer it will take (on average) for the orders to be implemented.

You will then need to look at the Order of Battle (pp14-15 of game-specific rulebook) alongside the handout that contains the various morale tracks. The OoB tells you how the armies are organised (e.g. the Canadians have 4 main battalions of infantry (each with 4 Companys ("Coy") and some battalion-level forces), plus some machine guns, AT guns, tanks, and artillery. Then, some of these formations appear on the handout with the morale tracks/boxes. I don't have this to hand, but I think you will find that, for the Canadians, the 4 main infantry battalions appear on that sheet, as do the tanks (1st Hussars and FGH). Basically, if a formation appears on the sheet with morale boxes, then that formation is subject to either Battalion or Vehicle Morale (and you do need to read the rulebook about morale to understand how Battalion or Vehicle Morale work).

Quote:
Then the rules go on and talk about regimental AT guns, Weapons companies, Weapons battalions, and scout platoons.


Then the rules say that some forces do not count as an element, and that means that you can add them to a force on an OpSheet without increasing the OpSheet's Size. I agree it can be hard to work out which units fit this category, and I think you have to do it through a combination of reading the OoB and knowing a bit about how WW2 armies were organised. For example, the Germans have some Heavy Weapon Companies in the 26th SS Panzer Grenadier Regiment, and these units can be added to an OpSheet without increasing its size. And if a formation does not appear on the sheet with the morale tracks/boxes, then it definitely falls into this category (e.g. all the AT units on the Canadian side).

Quote:
staff Modifiers


This is perhaps a simple rule explained in a complicated way. If an OpSheet contains all parts of an infantry battalion, then it gets a -1 modifier to Size. (What is a battalion? See the OoB).

Quote:
The weighted turns isn't clear


You give weighted turns to OpSheets, not to units. But yes an newly-written OpSheet where all units are currently unassigned gains 3 weighted turns each turn.

Quote:
If I am making out a Op sheet aren't the units unassigned to start with because they haven't been implemented yet? How does a unit become assigned when I have not put them in the game because the Op sheet is not implemented?


This can be complicated. Units may or may not be allowed to start the game with IMPLEMENTED OpSheets. If they start with implemented OpSheets, then there is no need to accrue weighted turns. If they start with unimplemented OpSheets, then they will need to accrue weighthed turns, and almost always they will do so at the rate of 3 weighted turns a turn (because the units will currently be unassigned, i.e. not on an implemented OpSheet).

For example, in the Campaign game, all German units enter the game with unimplemented OpSheets. So here, enter the game doesn't mean "enter the map" but more means that they are now ready to begin planning an assault just off the map. They accrue weighted turns at the rate of 3 weighted turns a turn until the implement, and then they come on the map.

Do ask more questions...I think it makes a lot of sense when it clicks but there may be a high bar to new entrants.

Mike
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Hi Randy

I'm myself a beginner in this series and I'm not an expert in military terminology either. Military terminology is confusing plus, each country uses the same term differently. For instance, in Canadian Crucible, the specific rule says that Canadian Regiments are actually battalion sized. For instance "Queen's Own Regiment" is a battalion or the 13 RCA Regiment is a battalion for game purposes.

I don't have much time now for a longer post, but as a practical aid you should pay attention to colour strips to identify formations (most of the time battalions) and the Order of Battle, located at the end of of the game specific rulebook. This will help you to locate independent units and who belongs to what.

The more colours you mix in an opsheet, the bigger size the opsheet has. [Opsheet size = number of different colours, except for gray independent units] and the longer it takes to implement.

Also, when mixing different formations (colours) in an opsheet, pay attention not to mix their areas of operation. This is depicted by lateral boundary symbols.

About staff modifier. If you received a battalion as reinforcement and implement one opsheet only for a couple of its companies, you are not involving the whole battalion and its stuff. If you send the whole battalion, its staff is supposed to be working hard in the operation planning, thus you receive a -1 staff modifier. This modifier is not accumulative. An opsheet with two complete battalions do not receive a -2 modifier for their staffs, only -1 is received.


The weighted turn is a ficticious clock which measures how fast your plan implements and reaches to all units involved. If your battalion is far away from action, the clock speeds up (3 "weighted turns" per game turn). If your battalion is firing or being fired, the clock slows down (1 "weigthed turn" per game turn). Vehicle formations are more agile so its clock is always triple as fast as the infantry formations.

You are right concerning morale. This is something that usually escapes you the first time you faces a TCS game. B-0 and B-1 units (those with a black 0 and black 1 instead of a white number) have a default morale of three (unless the game specific rule states otherwise). The black 0 and black 1 are defense factors for Point fire.

Artillery is usually abstracted as Off-board artillery resources. Sometimes you find a counter for On-board artillery. You have to identify them using the Order of Battle or the scenario setup. On board artillery usually have a morale of 6, unless stated otherwise by the game specific rules. In CC, German 88mm Flak is most of the time an Off-Board artillery resource. But in some scenarios, they appear as counters, becoming on-board artillery. Game specific rules for these units state that they have a morale of 3, like AT guns (instead of 6 as described in the generic rules).

Hope this helps
Rafael



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Ethan McKinney
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However confusing it may be, finish reading the rulebook. A lot of your question are addressed later on. Yes, the organization of the rulebook is strange: just roll with it for now.

Read this: http://www.trailblazersww2.org/history_infantrystructure.htm
Then this: http://www.bayonetstrength.150m.com/

After that, everything should be a lot clearer. Come back and ask follow-up questions

Mike, you need to edit your reply. Some of your tags got out of place.
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Ran Stu
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Thanks for quick replies.

I didn't realize when the general rule book mentions rule book, it could be the game specific rule book. I really want to learn this system and will not give up. And thanks to the replies, I have a new direction to investigate. I have read the general rule book and understand most of the other components of the book. But I have not delved into the game specific rule book. Let me do that and see what I can or cannot figure out.

And with the explanations given by people in the forum, it helps greatly, and I'll get back if I have any questions once I do my research with the game specific rule book.

My heart felt thanks to all.
Randy
 
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Ran Stu
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How does one do that quote highlight so I can ask about a particular section of the response? Hope that wasn't too dumb.
 
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Ran Stu
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Let me take this in small chunks as I study it more.

Weighted turns I understand simulate how long it takes a force to get ready for battle.

But how to do this is where I don't understand. If I have a force with 3 weighted turns, what does that mean as far as playing the game. Do I wait 3 turns before I can roll to try and implement them? How do I use in playing the game weighted turns?

Randy
 
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The rulebook example is at the end of pg 7.

You have an unimplemented op sheet with an accrued weight of 3.

If you have a Move or Hasty Defense op sheet you would be referencing the Cmd Prep Table on the second row from right and looking down the column of numbers matching your Cmd Prep + Op Sheet size to find the minimum die roll needed to implement.

The more "weight" or higher the number the smaller the die roll result needed to implement. Depending of course upon the "Type" of unimplemented op you are going for.

Edit: You can try to implement an op sheet each turn during the Cmd Phase #3 after you add recent weighted events, rule ref 6.9f.
 
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Ran Stu
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Thanks. The example lists it has accrued 27 weighted turns. How did it do that in the example?
 
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In each command phase's turn you write down in your opsheet how many weigthed turns accumulates this turn. If the battalion in the opsheet is far away from the enemy and has not Fired or be fired upon, it accrues 3 weighted turns in this game turn.

So one can imagine that in the example, it has been accruing 3 weighted turns in each command phase during 9 game turns in a row.
 
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Ran Stu
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So if I understand this, in a 9 turn game with a battalion setup as you describe they would generate 3 weighted turns. And since it is 9 game turns to the scenario it becomes a multiplier 9x3 =27 weighted turns.

Then when it goes to turn 2 you have 8 turns left, would it go to 8x3 = 24 weighted turns if not implemented?

I just found an excellent video on youtube by MJ Lyons. He goes step by step with examples of every rule. Long but very clear.

I will be checking this out and thanks again.
Randy
 
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Sorry, I think I didn't explain it well enough. Hope this lengthy sequence makes it clearer. (The scenario length does not matter in accruing turns).

Suposse you have a ficticious scenario and you begin the game with a battalion doing nothing (no opsheets of any kind). The battalion is well behind the front line. Your command prep is 3. Ophseet size is 0 ( 1 battalion -1 staff modifier)


Turn #1 - Command Phase.
You write an Attack opsheet for that battalion.

Turn #2 - Command Phase.
a) You accrue 3 weighted turns for that opsheet because the battalion did not attack or was attacked in any way.
b) You roll two dice and see in the table if that opsheet implements. Lookup column 1 (in row Attack) and row 3 (Size + Command prep). You need to roll 64 or higer to succeed. Roll 56. No luck.


Turn #3 - Command Phase.
a) You accrue 3 more weighted turns for that opsheet. Now you have 6 accrued turns.
b) You roll two dice and see in the table if that opsheet implements. Look up column 6 (in row Attack) and row 3 (size + prep). You need to roll now 63 or higher to succeed. Roll 32. No luck.


Turn #4 - Command Phase.
a) You accrue 3 more weighted turns for that opsheet. Now you have 9 accrued turns.
b) You roll two dice and see in the table if that opsheet implements. Look up column 9 (in row Attack) and row 3 (size + prep). You need to roll 55 or higher to succeed. Roll 12. Bad luck, try next time.

Suppose your battalion was subject to an air strike on the rear lines in turn #4.

Turn #5 - Command Phase.

a) You accrue 1 more weighted turns for that opsheet. Now you have 10 accrued turns.
b) You roll two dice and see in the table if that opsheet implements. Look up column 9 again (in row Attack) and row 3 (size + prep). You need to roll now 55 or higher to succeed. Roll 43. Still no luck.

Turn #6 - Command Phase.

a) You accrue now 3 more weighted turns for that opsheet. Now you have 13 accrued turns.
b) You roll two dice and see in the table if that opsheet implements. Look up column 12 (in row Attack) and row 3 (size + prep). You need to roll now 52 or higher to succeed. Roll 61. ยก Congratulations ! your ophseet is now implemented.




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Ran Stu
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Thanks that is a good explanation because it goes through this step by step. Even Mr. Lyons on the you tube video didn't do that which was surprising because he covers all else so elegantly. I think, at least for me and my type, a step by step walk through of writing the Op sheets with examples is the way to explain it. Much appreciated here.

A couple of questions.
Turn 1: A battalion as I understand it are all the units under the Order of Battle in the game specific manual, right? As I understand that a A Coy 3 x Inf (4-6-1 AA6) means A company called Coy with 3 infantry counters of 4-6-1 ratings. Not sure what the AA6 means though. So on the map you would have all the units under the battalion?

Under a scenario say 5.1, for set up it says C Coy RR. So I would set up with a C company Coy Regina Rifle Regiment counter infantry unit 4-6-1 but it looks like I can pick which battalion I want him to come from cause the order of battle has a lot of C Coy's. Right?

Turn 2: Excellent got it.
Turn 3: Excellent got it.
Turn 4: Excellent got it.
Turn 5: So when something changes you change the weighted turn formula from 3 to 1 adding 1 to 9 = 10. Got it. I assume your battalion is sitting on the map in their staging area or LD area, right? But can't move cause they haven't been implemented yet due to bad rolls. They are in a sense just organizing.
Turn 6: Excellent got it. It goes back to 3 because no attacks as in last turn.

Man that helps and like all things once understood, it seems simple. One has to really change how they play war games to grasp this. Lot different than Lock n Load, Tide of Iron, Conflict of Heroes, Band of Brothers, which I have played recently.

I really like giving the orders and planning out your operations.

Thanks again.
Randy

 
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Ethan McKinney
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randystu5417 wrote:
How does one do that quote highlight so I can ask about a particular section of the response? Hope that wasn't too dumb.

Click "Quote" below Rafael's answer above where he has a ton of quotes broken up. His whole message will be surrounded by quote tags, but you can ignore or delete them to see how he marked up his answer to get that layout.

When you're typing a message, there are various text controls directly above it on the right. If you select some text and then click "Q," the text is surrounded by quote tags. However, it won't attribute the quote to anyone. (When you quote Rafael's message, you'll the see the attribution code in the outermost quote tag.

BGG also makes quoted text small, which I find annoying. I often nest a font size tag inside the quote tags. Select Large as the size and then edit the number (point size of the font) to what looks good.
 
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Ethan McKinney
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randystu5417 wrote:
Turn 1: A battalion as I understand it are all the units under the Order of Battle in the game specific manual, right?

No. The Regina Rifles are a battalion. 1st Battalion, 26th Panzer Grenadier Regiment, 12th SS Panzer Division is a battalion.

randystu5417 wrote:
As I understand that a A Coy 3 x Inf (4-6-1 AA6) means A company called Coy with 3 infantry counters of 4-6-1 ratings. Not sure what the AA6 means though. So on the map you would have all the units under the battalion?

I'm not sure what your question is. If the scenario calls for A Coy, you get the three infantry platoons that make up that company. (Unlike the Germans, the Commonwealth infantry companies don't have integral weapon units. They're held at battalion level and detached to the companies as appropriate.)

AA6 is the stat line on the back of the counter.

randystu5417 wrote:
Under a scenario say 5.1, for set up it says C Coy RR. So I would set up with a C company Coy Regina Rifle Regiment counter infantry unit 4-6-1 but it looks like I can pick which battalion I want him to come from cause the order of battle has a lot of C Coy's. Right?

No, you get C company of the 1st battalion of the Regina Rifles. The Regina Rifles only have a single battalion (or they are a single battalion, just ignore the "Regiment" and think "battalion").
 
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randystu5417 wrote:


A couple of questions.
Turn 1: A battalion as I understand it are all the units under the Order of Battle in the game specific manual, right? As I understand that a A Coy 3 x Inf (4-6-1 AA6) means A company called Coy with 3 infantry counters of 4-6-1 ratings. Not sure what the AA6 means though. So on the map you would have all the units under the battalion?

Ok. I think we have coverd this in your other thread.

randystu5417 wrote:

Under a scenario say 5.1, for set up it says C Coy RR. So I would set up with a C company Coy Regina Rifle Regiment counter infantry unit 4-6-1 but it looks like I can pick which battalion I want him to come from cause the order of battle has a lot of C Coy's. Right?


See 4.1a Setup. When it says "C Coy RR", you must pick up all three platoons in the company.

Next line says AT RR [4 x AT]. Two notes here:
1) Although you may guess that this means the AT guns belonging to the RR, it should have said SPT-RR-7, as in the counter to avoid further confusion.
2) [4 x AT] means "do not pick up the whole lot, only four guns".
BTW, I think the proper term is "troop" for these guns

randystu5417 wrote:

Turn 5: So when something changes you change the weighted turn formula from 3 to 1 adding 1 to 9 = 10. Got it. I assume your battalion is sitting on the map in their staging area or LD area, right? But can't move cause they haven't been implemented yet due to bad rolls. They are in a sense just organizing.


Yes, could be. In Canadian Crucible, they can be even off-map. Have you ever played with off-map counters ? Well, here is a game that lets you do so. See 1.4 Exiting the map and 4.1i Entry Zones in the Canadian Crucible rulebook.

randystu5417 wrote:

Man that helps and like all things once understood, it seems simple. One has to really change how they play war games to grasp this. Lot different than Lock n Load, Tide of Iron, Conflict of Heroes, Band of Brothers, which I have played recently.


I have tried twice before to get started in TCS till I made some progress.
I enjoy a lot playing Lock'n'Load, but TCS is another league ...

Greetings
Rafael
 
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Hi Randy,

This is the Reginas Rifles Regiment (battalion for the game purposes)

Note the red 2 in the Bren carriers. This means that the counter represents 2 Bren carriers.

 
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Quote:
No. The Regina Rifles are a battalion. 1st Battalion, 26th Panzer Grenadier Regiment, 12th SS Panzer Division is a battalion.


What is in the battalion? Or is that a counter in itself?

 
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Quote:
Next line says AT RR [4 x AT]. Two notes here:
1) Although you may guess that this means the AT guns belonging to the RR, it should have said SPT-RR-7, as in the counter to avoid further confusion.
2) [4 x AT] means "do not pick up the whole lot, only four guns".
BTW, I think the proper term is "troop" for these guns


Rafael, thanks but what and where did the SPT come from. What does it mean? I thought the AT RR [4 x AT] was the AT PL 6pdr AT under OOB under 1st Battalion Regina Rifles. They have that listed there. I would only take 4 of the 6 listed. Is that right?

Randy
 
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Ran Stu
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Thanks on the graphic. Helps to see them as counters without a magnifying glass.
Randy
 
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randystu5417 wrote:

Rafael, thanks but what and where did the SPT come from. What does it mean? I thought the AT RR [4 x AT] was the AT PL 6pdr AT under OOB under 1st Battalion Regina Rifles. They have that listed there. I would only take 4 of the 6 listed. Is that right?

Randy


SPT = Support.
AT Pl. 6 x 6pdr AT (3-7-0 PB3)

means

AT Platoon. 6 counters x 6pounder AT guns.

3-7-0 PB3 is the statistics for a single counter.

That is 3 Attack factors, nominal Range 7, Defense factor 0.
I posted what PB3 means in the other thread.

The Order of Battle and Counter manifest should match the actual number of counters in your game. So, you should have 6 of these counters like in the picture above. The important thing, as always, is that all share (with the rest of Regina Rifles) the same coloured strip.

[4 x AT] in the scenario means pick up any 4 counters from the pool of those AT guns.
 
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Hi again Randy,

Do not try a "frontal assault" against the series rulebook and the game specific rulebook. It didn't work for me. Twice.

Rather, take the first scenario and start pushing counters. In my first games I did not use Artillery nor Opsheets. Yet, there are lots of things to master (LOS, morale, spotting, SFAs, PFAs, Assaults, Overwatch, AT rolls, movement and mode change, etc.). As they say in 6.1 Playing Without Command, you can play perfectly without Opsheets, just to get "bitten" by the game system. And when you are more or less comfortable, then enter the Opsheet stuff. By that point, I'm sure you will be more proficient and have less problems with all that section 6.
Greetings
Rafael
 
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Thanks again Rafael,
Excellent advice. I'll definitely do that. And thanks for all the help. It is good to understand the basic background of the game and it it's components. I am feeling better about it all.

I am also hopeful that these posts and replies will help others with the game and not just walk away from it. I do have 12 of these games and very much want to get into all, so I'll start doing some scenarios and enjoying it all.

I heard Canadian Crucible is a good one to start with. You agree? Like I said I have 12 and MJ Lyons does have his video tutorial on Frozen Hell, so I am thinking of maybe going with that one at first. Thoughts?

Anyway, off to try the game and work at it through playing.

Randy
 
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randystu5417 wrote:
Thanks again Rafael,
I heard Canadian Crucible is a good one to start with. You agree? Like I said I have 12 and MJ Lyons does have his video tutorial on Frozen Hell, so I am thinking of maybe going with that one at first. Thoughts?


I have not yet played other titles in the series but I think CC is a very good introductory game. It is small in terms of map size and units and is up to the latest rules without "conversion kits". Granted, there are LOS issues to worry about, but the terrain is not rugged and is most of the time quite evident to see where the LOS is blocked. IIRC, there are three scenarios with length about 9-12 turns and I find them quite interesting.

Another game with no LOS issues is Screaming Eagles in Holland, but it is a larger game (2 maps). Another usually cited entry game is Bloody Ridge. It is a 1 map game, but the map is full of jungle hexes (blocking LOS). I like these battles as well but currently I have no opinion on these two other than they look great.

I think I heard somewhere that A Frozen Hell was not easily converted to the latest 4.0 rules
 
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Thanks, I'll stick with CC and work it out.
Randy
 
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