Recommend
1 
 Thumb up
 Hide
16 Posts

Fire in the Lake» Forums » Rules

Subject: US raising support rss

Your Tags: Add tags
Popular Tags: [View All]
Steffen Beck
Germany
Passau
flag msg tools
designer
Avatar
mb

In order to pacify a province/city, there has to be a terror marker on it? How else can the US raise support in order to win?
 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Todd Carter
United States
Neptune
New Jersey
flag msg tools
badge
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
There doesn't have to be a terror marker on a space in order to pacify. It just costs another 3 resources to remove it on top of shifts.

Pretty much the only way you can raise support is either pacification or event. However, NVA can lower opposition with their terror operation.

Still, don't think of the US as being too much at a disadvantage. The US wins many of the games that I play! Hope that helps.
4 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
United States
Ladson
South Carolina
flag msg tools
badge
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
I can see how someone could get hung up on "pacify". If there's no terror, what are you pacifying?

Quote:
3.2.1

Pacify to remove any Terror marker and then to shift the space up to 2 levels toward Active Support. The space must have COIN Control and, if ARVN Training, both ARVN Troops and Police


Only regard the things after "must" to meet an eligible space.

1 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Russ Williams
Poland
Wrocław
Dolny Śląsk
flag msg tools
designer
badge
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
In case it was a language confusion, "remove any Terror marker" means "remove a Terror marker if any is there". That use of "remove any" occurs a lot in the rules.
2 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Steffen Beck
Germany
Passau
flag msg tools
designer
Avatar
mb
It says "Pacify to remove any Terror marker and then to shift the space up to 2 levels toward Active Support."

This is where the economic use of the language in the rules bites itself in the behind. The "and then" clearly expects a prerequisite to happen first.
 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Russ Williams
Poland
Wrocław
Dolny Śląsk
flag msg tools
designer
badge
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
sugadaddy wrote:
It says "Pacify to remove any Terror marker and then to shift the space up to 2 levels toward Active Support."

This is where the economic use of the language in the rules bites itself in the behind. The "and then" clearly expects a prerequisite to happen first.

Not really; you do 2 things in order, and the prerequisite is within the first thing, not a prerequisite for the 2nd thing:

1. remove a terror marker (if one is there)
2. shift the space up to 2 levels toward Active Support


FWIW: I think the rules would be much more verbose (in a bad way) if they did not use this concise/precise style.
1 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Steffen Beck
Germany
Passau
flag msg tools
designer
Avatar
mb
If there is no "if one is there", like you added, then the sentence means do A and then B.

I don't mind the limited use of words, but break it up with a few examples to clarify. People can skip those if they may.
 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Russ Williams
Poland
Wrocław
Dolny Śląsk
flag msg tools
designer
badge
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
I think it's actually like ordinary language usage. E.g. if I want to tell you how to clear away stuff from a table, I might say "Remove any dishes and then remove the tablecloth".

If there are no dishes, you would still remove the tablecloth, right? The presence of dishes is not a prerequisite for you to be able to remove the tablecloth when clearing away stuff from a table.

Or to put it another way, the word "then" is only about time ordering ("X happens, then Y happens"), not about logical dependency ("if X is true, then do Y").
1 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Steffen Beck
Germany
Passau
flag msg tools
designer
Avatar
mb
russ wrote:
I think it's actually like ordinary language usage.


This rulebook is anything but ordinary language usage. It seems to me the aim is to be ultra precise with absolutely no room for assumptions.

But i guess i'm the only one who got that wrong, so there you go.
 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Grayson
United States
Richmond
Virginia
flag msg tools
"Goes to show, you don't ever know, Watch each card you play and play it slow..."
badge
Charles Stoddart (artwork from Pax Pamir 2e)
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
Upon review of 3.2.1, I can understand your interpretation (as it says "and" and not "and/or" or some other variant), and I think you've pointed out an interesting error in the rules between how playtesters, volko/mark, the rest of us unwashed masses interpret it and what it says. To give a view of the intent that you see the rest of us positing, I suggest looking at page 3 and 4 in the playbook example when the ARVN pacify (also applicable to 3.2.1) where there is no terror marker.
2 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Oerjan Ariander
Sweden
HUDDINGE
flag msg tools
Avatar
mbmbmbmb
sugadaddy wrote:
If there is no "if one is there", like you added, then the sentence means do A and then B.

I don't mind the limited use of words, but break it up with a few examples to clarify. People can skip those if they may.

There is an "if one is there" in the sentence; it is spelled "any". As Russ wrote this is standard English usage of the word; and it is also precise English usage of the word.

I suspect that part of the problem here is that "any" does not have just one single equivalent in German; depending on context it could be translated to anything from "etwas" or "irgendein" via "ein" to "jeder" or even "alle". Steffen, you seem to have interpreted this "any" as meaning "ein" or "irgendein", but the way this particular English sentence is written there is no way it could mean that. My German is extremely rusty, but I believe a better German translation in this case would be "jeder".

So, when you wrote:
sugadaddy wrote:
The "and then" clearly expects a prerequisite to happen first.

you were partially correct: there is indeed a prerequisite, but it is a different one from what you thought. The prerequisite for shifting a space via Pacify/Agitate is that there be no Terror markers left in the space; so if there are any such markers there they must all be removed before the space can be shifted. If OTOH there aren't any Terror markers there, you're good to go right away since the space already meets the prerequisite.

Regards,
Oerjan
4 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Steffen Beck
Germany
Passau
flag msg tools
designer
Avatar
mb
How about this sentence: "Pick out any smelly preworn bowling shoes and then go to to the lanes."

You're not allowed to go to the lanes if you haven't picked up your shoes first. I think it may be a matter of context, like russ' dishes/tablecloth example.

2 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Russ Williams
Poland
Wrocław
Dolny Śląsk
flag msg tools
designer
badge
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
sugadaddy wrote:
How about this sentence: "Pick out any smelly preworn bowling shoes and then go to to the lanes."

You're not allowed to go to the lanes if you haven't picked up your shoes first. I think it may be a matter of context, like russ' dishes/tablecloth example.


Good interesting (counter)example!

Agreed, the context seems to matter for understanding the semantics of such sentences; evidently syntax alone does not suffice.

And some real-world knowledge is pre-supposed:

* We know that we need shoes as a prerequisite in order to enter the bowling lane. So "take any shoes" means that you are required to take a pair of shoes before entering the bowling lane.

* We know that we obviously do not need dishes as a prerequisite in order to remove a tablecloth. So "remove any dishes" means that if there happen to be any dishes, then you should remove them, but you certainly don't need dishes to proceed to step 2 (removing the tablecloth).

Perhaps the FITL authors assumed that it was "obvious" that the presence of terror is not a necessary prerequisite for increasing support, but rather that if there happens to be any terror, then you need to deal with it before proceeding to step 2 (increasing support).

===

Hmm, but note this:

The bowling shoe example has a subtle problem. Its instructions are sloppy! If a person is already wearing bowling shoes (e.g. their own pair, brought from home), then clearly they do not really need to "pick any shoes" before going to the lane. (Similar to how if there is no terror marker, you do not need to remove a terror marker!)

So in some sense, they are bad instructions. They should probably be said more precisely, e.g. "If you are not already wearing bowling shoes, then pick any pair and put it on, then go to the lanes."

===

Another interesting difference:

In the bowling example, we know that there are many pairs of shoes, and you're supposed to take (only) one pair.

In the FITL example, there's usually zero or one terror markers, but in theory there could be two; in any case, you must remove all terror markers (as opposed to precisely one).


...Ah, language!

===

It makes me ponder that the real point of these types of instructions is (to take jargon from the field of software verification) that you need to establish necessary preconditions:

To increase support, there need to be no terror markers (so if there are terror markers, first remove them).
To remove a tablecloth, there need to be no dishes (so if there are dishes, first remove them).
To enter the bowling lane, you need to have bowling shoes (so if you do not, then you need to put on a pair).
6 
 Thumb up
0.01
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Claudio Hornblower
Italy
flag msg tools
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
...I was so mesmerized following those shoes and lanes language rollercoasters that, from start to finish, I totally forgot the jungle, the bombs and the reason why I was here wow

(I too play it like said; it's a flowchart cascade and each step costs 3 resources: it's quite clear in the player aid to me:

Pacify: Every 3 ARVN Resources spent removes any Terror marker from a space or - once no Terror - shifts 1 level toward Active Support, up to 2 levels per space

That is the presence of Terror shields the Support increase; if 2 Terrors, you need 6 res before increasing Support; if 0 Terrors, you're clear to add Support; etc.)

(That's why I enjoy playing NVA btw!)
3 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
mark mcleod
United Kingdom
Birkenhead
Wirral
flag msg tools
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
Mythologem wrote:

That is the presence of Terror shields the Support increase; if 2 Terrors, you need 6 res before increasing Support; if 0 Terrors, you're clear to add Support; etc.)

(That's why I enjoy playing NVA btw!)


You can only have one terror marker, is that right?
 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Grayson
United States
Richmond
Virginia
flag msg tools
"Goes to show, you don't ever know, Watch each card you play and play it slow..."
badge
Charles Stoddart (artwork from Pax Pamir 2e)
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
markmc wrote:
Mythologem wrote:

That is the presence of Terror shields the Support increase; if 2 Terrors, you need 6 res before increasing Support; if 0 Terrors, you're clear to add Support; etc.)

(That's why I enjoy playing NVA btw!)


You can only have one terror marker, is that right?


If doing the Terror op, correct (3.3.4 in the bulleted section confirms that). Certain events will add extras though per 5.1.1 so it's *possible* but unlikely.
2 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Front Page | Welcome | Contact | Privacy Policy | Terms of Service | Advertise | Support BGG | Feeds RSS
Geekdo, BoardGameGeek, the Geekdo logo, and the BoardGameGeek logo are trademarks of BoardGameGeek, LLC.