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Descent: Journeys in the Dark» Forums » Rules

Subject: Does JUMP need LOS? rss

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Armando Hernandez
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Situation (RtL, Descent 1):
Two heroes on an ice space. One is behind the other. Can the hero behind the first hero jump trough that hero to land in front of him?

Me and duhtch discussed this matter extensivly but did not find any ruling explicitly stating LOS is necessary for jumping. Thorns ability would hint that jumping needs LOS. Then again the rules state nothing specific of a LOS requirement in regard with jump (at least nothing we found):

Q: What kinds of spaces can be jumped over?
A: Any terrain can be jumped over unless it blocks movement
or explicitly prohibits jumping. Up through the Sea of
Blood expansion, the only traps that can be moved through
but not jumped over are scything blades and dart fields.

Q: Where can a figure land after jumping?
A: A figure’s landing space must be in a straight line from
his starting space, following one of the eight main compass
directions and crossing only jumpable spaces. Movement
point cost = 3 (per space crossed).

This question also could be expanded to pits. Can a hero jump out of a pit to land 2 spaces from the pit (for a cost of 3 mp)?

We would like to hear your oppinions and if possible any FAQ or rule which could resolve our question.
 
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Dennis Engblom
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I would say that nothing says that jumping requires LOS.

There's nothing I can find either saying that you couldn't jump given the circumstances with ice, ie the hero behind can jump past the one in front and the ice as far as I can tell.

The thorn ability is something completely different according to me and is so fundamentally different that any reflections regarding it's specifics with LOS cannot be applies to jumps generally.

I would argue extensively against the ability to jump from a pit to land 2 spaces away. If I would have to resign my point it would cost 4 mp since pits add +1 mp according to FAQ:

Q: How many movement points does it cost to move from
inside a pit onto a mud space?
A: Three movement points. Adding costs like this can be
applied to similar cases as well (pit/tree, pit/bed, etc.),
the guideline being +1 MP for moving from a pit space
to a non-pit space, added up with any costs associated
with the space to be entered. This extra cost is not applicable
for figures with Fly, Acrobat, Runemaster Thorn’s
teleport, or Nimble.

That's my take on it anyway.
 
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Armando Hernandez
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So your calculation would be 4MP for a jump range pit+2 and 7MP for pit+3?

Maybe also the rule states you can only jump over pit's ..have to look that up.

You are not allowed to jump over normal spaces it seems (althoug that also would make sense to make sure a crushing block or pit cannot be placed at certain spaces).

Is every space you are allowed to jump over specifically named?
 
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Dennis Engblom
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I don't think every space is accounted for but i'm pretty sure I read that you could jump over ice.
 
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Lanabound
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I also think that line of sight is irrelevant for jumping terrain, as I cannot find anything in the rules that states otherwise. In your example, I believe you can jump over the space with the hero figure. Any type of terrain can be jumped, as long as it does not block movement or forbids jumping (FAQ, pg 13).

I do not think you can jump out of a pit while in a pit.

The basic rulebook says that when you climb out of a pit, you spend 2 MP to place the figure "adjacent to the pit in any legal, empty space" (JitD, pg 16). This implies you cannot jump directly from a pit space to a non-adjacent space. Also, since your line of sight is restricted to the adjacent spaces while in a pit (FAQ, pg 3), Runemaster Thorn can only teleport out of a pit to adjacent spaces.

The 2 MP to climb out of a pit is more specifically 1 MP + the MP needed to enter the adjacent space (FAQ, pg 13). The example given was a pit adjacent to mud, but can be extended to a pit adjacent to any terrain.

The example in the FAQ for climbing out of a pit has nothing to do with jumping, but what it does imply is that if the MP cost for jumping can be "broken down" in the same way, the destination space could cost more than 1 MP to enter.

Should the MP cost for jumping be a flat 3 MP per space or broken down? I believe it should be broken down. This is because a figure that jumps a pit and receives a web token from an interrupt attack (FAQ, pg 13) is "unable to continue the jump" and falls into the pit. Web tokens prevent the figure from spending MP. So, if you assume that you simply pay 3 MP upfront, jump the space, and then get webbed by interrupt, you could argue that you already paid your MP cost, no longer need to continue spending MP to complete the jump, the web token has no effect on your jump, and you should be allowed to land normally (and thus the FAQ would be incorrect).

So, I would suggest that it costs 2 MP to actually jump the space (i.e. enter the space itself) + 1 MP (or the MP cost in general) to enter the destination space. Extending this, if you jump a pit onto mud or a tree, it would cost 4 MP.

To expand further (sorry if I am being a bit confusing here), since you can jump multiple spaces (e.g. 2 spaces for 6 MP), I would further argue that every space you jump over except the last costs 3 MP, then the last space you jump over costs 2 MP, then your destination space costs its usual MP. (Otherwise the MP cost would actually get smaller as the jump gets bigger).

For a fun example, imagine three pit spaces in a row next to mud. To jump all that, take 3 MP for the first pit, 3 MP for the second, 2 MP for the third, and 2 MP for the mud = 10 MP. That won't happen; it's just an illustration.
 
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Armando Hernandez
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Hi Lanabound,

thank you very much. In a way your explanations have been very helpfull (also thanks for your exact FAQ). The two outstanding clarifications for me are:
1) The placing rule of a pit. So yes no jumping out of a pit.
2) The reference to the web example.

Now for the mud example and jumping several pits:
If entering a pit space needs to be paid with and additional MP (which makes perfect sense if you compare it to other space entering calculations) then your example of 3 pits and one mud would be:
First pit: +1 and 1
Second pit: +1 and 1
Third pit: +1 and 1
Mud: +1 MP move into mud, 1 move for mud ,1 move out of mud into non mud space = 9 MP

OR as the rules state:
If a hero or monster is aware of mud, it may jump across the mud as though it were a pit.

So again here: +1 for jump, 1 entering mud space, 1 landing onto hard ground

So this gives me 9 MP to jump all 4 spaces and enter the fifth.

No difference here if I move onto the mud space and then out onto hard ground or jump it completly.

The mud example is nevertheless very telling I think because as cited above the rules explicitly allow to jump mud. And as we see there is no difference in MP for mud space to jump over or move into. Even for several mud spaces there is no difference which could be an indication that jumps can be handled as shown above. I am not sure if there are levels where mud also has secondary effects but MP wise it would not matter if they are traversed or jumped.


As to LOS our OL in my RL game observed that figures blocking LOS is a property of resolving attacks. Figures do not block LOS for spawn resolution and also not even for attack resolution in case of a reach ability.

This would be another indication that LOS in the case of jumping does not matter.

 
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