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Subject: Alternatives to Archipelago and Stronghold rss

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Ian Kissell
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I am looking for alternatives to both of these games, but I decided to just combine the queries into one thread:

Archipelago: I love many elements of Archipelago. I love the exploration, the building of production buildings which you can use to build new buildings. I also love the hidden scoring and somewhat chaotic endings. I can take or leave the semi-coop elements, wish it scaled better, and overall, just wish it were easier to teach.

Alternatives I have tried: Deus, Terra Mystica, Concordia, Clash of Cultures

I would particularly like something where you build differant types of production buildings, but they produce every turn (similar to Roads & Boats).

Stronghold: I really wanted to like this game, but it is almost impossible to get into. Also, I felt like for every cool thing I did, the other side had an "undo-cool" move that killed it. Looking for an asymmetric two player game that is not is somewhat combat oriented (and not a magic clone). I like A Few Acres of Snow, but looking for other options. I also enjoy War of the Ring (Second Edition), but it is almost prohibitively long.

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Ian Kissell
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I know everyone says Terra Mystica for this, but one of the things I love about Archipelago is the variable map. Also, Archipelago has a little chaos to it, and TM feels much more scripted.

Also, Deus I just find uncompelling.
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