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Liberty or Death: The American Insurrection» Forums » General

Subject: A million plus people vanished! rss

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Karsten Engelmann
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okay,

I normally dont pick nits BUT, if a designer is going to tell me, like in rule 1.3.2 that each provine pop value represents 50,000 and each city point represents 50,000... I.e. The designer DESIGNED the games on these values, then i am going to ask, where are the other million plus people in America in 1775?

The game totals provide for 1.3 million (minus Quebec city), but there were at least 2.4 million.

So, where did they go?
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Eddy del Rio
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karstenengelmann wrote:
okay,

I normally dont pick nits BUT, if a designer is going to tell me, like in rule 1.3.2 that each provine pop value represents 50,000 and each city point represents 50,000... I.e. The designer DESIGNED the games on these values, then i am going to ask, where are the other million plus people in America in 1775?

The game totals provide for 1.3 million (minus Quebec city), but there were at least 2.4 million.

So, where did they go?

Underground!
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Justin
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I'm impressed... Just not sure in what way.
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joe dagostino
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There's a table here in Wikipedia about colonial populations
http://www2.census.gov/prod2/decennial/documents/00165897ch0...

Colonies like Pennsylvania and New York seem to be under represented at the 50k per population count - more like 100k; but I feel this is an extremely nitty nit pick.
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Brian Train
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Rounding down more often than rounding up!

Brian
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Karsten Engelmann
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Joe,

Ii have not played the game or any coin yet. So, as long as those population numbers have no real use in the game we are all right. If population and its distribution WERE important, than this is a significant design problem!

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Karsten Engelmann
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Joe,

I Was going to let this drop until i read your excellent paper you linked.

It has new york, our bellweather at 190,000 in 1775. This number is in keeping with the game design. Two pop points in the state and two pop points in the city. All is well!

Except...CT-RI had a real population of 250,000 which should give it a pop value of five! In the game it is a '2'. Hopefully this number really does not matter, or else we have a problem with the design.

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Harold Buchanan
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My intention was to ignore this discussion but given an incorrect reference to a significant design problem, I will weight in.

The concept of abstraction is being ignored. Implying that a calculation of population of a Colony (which is either 1 or 2 in game terms) may weigh on a soft design note in the rules is nonsensical.

This number has absolutely no impact on game play so debating it is a waste of time. The reference roughly 50,000 in my mind varies from 20,000 to 100,000 and as indicated in the rules is influenced by a number of factors. Once again, given the level of abstraction of COIN games this just doesn't matter.

If you want actual population please use Google. If you want my view of the relative values of these Colonies within the context of my model - please use the map.
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Karsten Engelmann
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Having dealt with COIN as a professional for many years, these things matter. So when the designer gives a precise number, one takes notice.

I certainly uderstand the concrpt of abstraction, but seeing so precise a number as 50,000 per pop point makes one examine the underlying hypothesis and how far off that it. But, given you intended a wide range and play for effect, that makes sense.

I only had what was written in the rulebook to go on, but now have what I needed!

Thanks!

Look forward to playing.
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O.Shane Balloun
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karstenengelmann wrote:
seeing so precise a number as 50,000 per pop point makes


In fact, this description is incorrect. "50,000" actually has a very low precision because it has only one significant digit. If the design notes had read that each population point represents "55,348," then that would have been precise (though inaccurate).

What you are really complaining about is inaccuracy, but accuracy is always a function of precision, and the precision here is low.

You can have high accuracy when the precision is low. Measured to the nearest one-hundred million, the population of the United States has stayed constant at three-hundred million for many years. Is that inaccurate? No, that's accurate. Is that precise? No. Does it matter? Not really, because we only speak about such things when making relative comparisons anyway.

The point of the population points in LoD is to make a rough comparison between relative values of different colonies on the board. For the level of abstraction they represent, they are just fine. After all, it would destroy the simulative effects in the design mechanics for CT/RI to be continuously occupied by all four sides because the population was 5. CT/RI just wasn't that valuable.
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Karsten Engelmann
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With respect, 50,000 is the same precision as 55,348. The designer did not say 'about 50k' or even 50k, he said 50,000. This number, mathematically has the same precision as 55,348.

Regardless, the designer has given his true intent, and we can move on.

As for CT/RI in the game, I cannot say, as i have not played it.

As for CT/RI in the war, their contribution was critical.
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Ron Wood
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Note that the Key Terms Index within the Rules of Play states "Population" represents "50,000 to 100,000 people per point".
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Rex Stites
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karstenengelmann wrote:
With respect, 50,000 is the same precision as 55,348.


50,000 has 1 significant figure; 55,348 has 5 significant figures.
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Karsten Engelmann
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Um,

The numbet of significient figures depends...

One thing for sure, the game has one less horse, as we have beaten this one to death!
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Mayor Jim
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karstenengelmann wrote:
Um,

The numbet of significient figures depends...

One thing for sure, the game has one less horse, as we have beaten this one to death!

Amen to that gulp
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Fabrice Lamidey
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karstenengelmann wrote:
Having dealt with COIN as a professional for many years, these things matter. So when the designer gives a precise number, one takes notice.

I certainly uderstand the concrpt of abstraction, but seeing so precise a number as 50,000 per pop point makes one examine the underlying hypothesis and how far off that it. But, given you intended a wide range and play for effect, that makes sense.

I only had what was written in the rulebook to go on, but now have what I needed!

Thanks!

Look forward to playing.


I read on page 3

"each Population value representing ROUGHLY [my emphasis] 50,000 colonists with adjustments made for economic value".

Sounds pretty prudent and states the design intention quite well to me.
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Tor Iver Wilhelmsen
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karstenengelmann wrote:
So, where did they go?

They're women and did not start counting for anything until the 1960s or so...
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Gabriel Conroy
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Also don't forget each slave only counted for 3/5ths of a person, so there's another big factor.
 
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Harold Buchanan
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JadedGamer wrote:
They're women and did not start counting for anything until the 1960s or so...


During the revolution New Jersey gave women the right to vote for a short time only to take it away for another 150 years!
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