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Subject: Explain what we're doing wrong. rss

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Randolph Bookman
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It's 12am so I will try and type coherently now before I go to bed and forget everything.

We played are 2nd game of co2 (5 players) and we ran into some (at least for us) game breaking issues. I want to see if I'm missing something.

The game started out well. People were installing projects, going off to summits working of each others work etc. In round 4 it became pretty clear who the leader(s) were and then it stalemated and our first issue came up:

No one wanted to install for fear of king making the other players. So everyone was proposing. Early on installing isn't such a problem but later on it's huge. Yes you can get summit or expertise for scientist, but late in the game many of us were close to the end of tracks or tied high enough that everyone would score, so it wasn't really an incentive. Maybe it's just my group, but better to give someone else points or we all lose the game isn't motivation enough for us.

Are proposals at all limited? Other than the types that can be proposed in regions, Can I have 3 of the same proposals in one area (3 solar etc.)? I believe yes, but want to check.

What are the limitations bits in the game? At one point we had constructed all of the cold fusion plants. Can they still be proposed?

Continuing the limitations, towards round 4-5 players we were hording CEPs (yes we played the market correctly. At one point the market could no longer refill because we had all the CEPs.

Some of the Company Goal Cards seem way over powered. I understand taking out cards with less players but with 5 players some of them are down right impossible. The winner's card was score for CEPs in hand which gave him 2 points in hand (not counting his controlled areas he got 14 points off of that. I came in second with 12 for having plants in 4 areas. One of the players had to have control of the most regions. In a 5 player game that's going to be extremely difficult. Yes you can trade it in for money, but still some of the cards just appear to be easier than others.

The market seemed to float between 1,2,3 most of the game. By the end we cranked it to four.

I would love to hear from people how they've solved these problems.

Some initial thoughts on fixes. Make it so you can only take vps from tracks not $. Can't propose more than 2 items at a region till they are installed. Once a factory can no longer be built it cannot be proposed. The first player auction variant might make it more interesting as well.
 
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Manu
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Before trying to address your questions, I would like to first ask how you all managed not lose due to the pollution limit?
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Joel L
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I don't know the answers to all those questions, but based on your king-making statement I think one thing your group missed is that Installation is actually often worth more VP than Construction.

This thread may help too:

https://boardgamegeek.com/thread/880800/one-sentence-random-...
 
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Randolph Bookman
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Sure it never hit 500. Got close 460. You only add polluting projects to spots that are open on particular decades. We were able to fill those spots as needed and then to fill few of the smaller regions that caused removal polluting plants and we started bringing down co2. In fact, I would argue at certain point the threat goes away.

If I have 190 of co2 and 4 regions pop out pollution 20,20,20, 30 the new co2 total is 280. You don't add 190 to the total again for the year(470). That's the only way I could see the game ending that quickly.
 
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Ariel
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Careful with the company goal cards limit. They state a maximum of possible points. And it's true, they are well balanced but a better CO2 experience is with 4 players.
 
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Randolph Bookman
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I read that but 12 points on the board is more than 2 CEOs that potentially give you 1 point if the market gets dumped ( forestry). As it was at the end of the game it would be 2 points. Yes I'm spending 10 dollars to build but that's only 5 points I'm paying. Again early on I agree but as the game continues tech resources and money are not as valuable as points on the board science was in such a position that scientist that gaining a science wasn't going to be enough to swing any spots.

I'd still like to get answers to my original questions
 
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Randolph Bookman
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Chango wrote:

Careful with the company goal cards limit. They state a maximum of possible points. And it's true, they are well balanced but a better CO2 experience is with 4 players.


Yes we checked and followed limits.
 
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Vital Lacerda
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2010 - Vinhos, 2012 - CO2, 2014 - kanban, 2015 - The Gallerist, 2016 - Vinhos Deluxe, 2017 - Lisboa, 2018 - Escape Plan, CO2 Second Chance and Dragon Keepers - Maybe: 2019 - ROTW Portugal and On Mars, 2020 - Kanban Deluxe Edition and Máquina
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Quote:
Some of the Company Goal Cards seem way over powered.

I think they are not. some cards does not play in 5 players game.

Anyway, not a good count to this game. Specially for the first matches.
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Randolph Bookman
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newrev wrote:
Quote:
Some of the Company Goal Cards seem way over powered.

I think they are not. some cards does not play in 5 players game.

Anyway, not a good count to this game. Specially for the first matches.


Vital,
Thank you for answering. I must have missed you take out company goal cards in a 5 player game. I knew you removed certain cards in smaller counts. ** AMENDING** Unless there was an updated rulebook, there is no mention of removing any goal cards in a 5 player game.

Do you mind addressing some of the questions from my original post?


Joel,
I reread the link. One of the players brought up the point
it may only be considering the impact of building the power plant, and not the fact that the third and especially the fourth different power plant gives you many opportunities for the UN cards. The bonus 5+ pts (and the fourth plant can lead to much more than that, as it can enable you to scoop up several UN cards) makes the couple points you get off money/CEPs negligible. We were installing projects early, but once it meant people could get a UN card out of it, we stopped. Perhaps the UN cards should be removed, and then this would make installing more equivalent to constructing.
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Randolph Bookman
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Bump.
Just looking for some insight from anyone on my original post.

Thanks.

 
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Vital Lacerda
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Randolph,
you have plenty of insight to your questions in the forums.
Many of the problems you found are due to inexperience with the game. Some are common in first plays until you can see how to turn them around. and you play 5 players, that is not a good count to this game.
Please search the forums and you may found your answers.
 
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Michael Cabral
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shieldwolf wrote:
No one wanted to install for fear of king making the other players. So everyone was proposing. Early on installing isn't such a problem but later on it's huge. Yes you can get summit or expertise for scientist, but late in the game many of us were close to the end of tracks or tied high enough that everyone would score, so it wasn't really an incentive. Maybe it's just my group, but better to give someone else points or we all lose the game isn't motivation enough for us.


In Vital's one-sentence random tips he states that installing projects can be more beneficial for VPs than constructing power plants. Near the end of the game having CEPs, expertise and cash in hand will give you the most VPs. Remember you can take VPs instead of money at the beginning of the decade and at the end of the game scoring (remember step 3 is to distribute income to ALL players) I would take the income from the scientist expertise as VPs instead of money as 2 coins = VP)

Since you get a coin or VP for all of your tokens. I would concentrate on increasing expertise on energy techs that will increase the most (remember some tracks do not increment in value i.e., 4,4,5,6 instead of 4,5,6,7; or try to create combos where you increase one step that will increase expertise in another solution which will then increase expertise in another, etc.)

newrev wrote:

7- Building a recycling power plant only gives you 1.5VPs, plus 1 expertise, Because, you must spend 7 coins (3.5 Vps) to get 5 VPs.

8- Installing the recycling project gives you 5 coins, 2.5 Vps plus a CEP to your hand, that worth at least 0.5 Vp.

Source: https://boardgamegeek.com/thread/880800/one-sentence-random-...

Vital gives a lot of good advice in certain tactics you can use against your opponents.

shieldwolf wrote:

Are proposals at all limited? Other than the types that can be proposed in regions, Can I have 3 of the same proposals in one area (3 solar etc.)? I believe yes, but want to check.


The only limitation is what is allowed in that region as you stated. Yes you can have 3 of the same type of proposals as Vital stated somewhere in the manual that the governments are corrupt enough to pay even though all the power plant slots are full of clean energy.

shieldwolf wrote:

What are the limitations bits in the game? At one point we had constructed all of the cold fusion plants. Can they still be proposed?


This is stated in the manual. The governments are corrupt enough to pay for proposals even though you can not build them. You can still install them the project by paying a CEP. This is one scenario that can prevent king making in a sense as the other player can not physically construct another power plant of that type as there are not enough materials available to construct it; in this case the power plant tile.

shieldwolf wrote:

Continuing the limitations, towards round 4-5 players we were hording CEPs (yes we played the market correctly. At one point the market could no longer refill because we had all the CEPs.


I made a mistake in my first playthrough in not taking into account the maximum CEP limit per region. It is the equal to the number of plants that can be built in that region (Africa can have at most 3 CEPs in the region, Asia can have 6, etc.) When you are moving a CEP via an expertise track make sure you do not exceed the region limit. If it is already met you MUST place it somewhere else even if you do not control that region. If all regions are full the CEP remains in the market.

Also make sure that a CEP is spent from a region or the players hand if he/she controls it.

shieldwolf wrote:

Some of the Company Goal Cards seem way over powered. I understand taking out cards with less players but with 5 players some of them are down right impossible. The winner's card was score for CEPs in hand which gave him 2 points in hand (not counting his controlled areas he got 14 points off of that. I came in second with 12 for having plants in 4 areas. One of the players had to have control of the most regions. In a 5 player game that's going to be extremely difficult. Yes you can trade it in for money, but still some of the cards just appear to be easier than others.


I agree that card 27 is pretty difficult to score in (4 points for each region you control with a maximum score of 16 points) I will check the manual if it states to take out any cards for a 5-player game. I will reply later in this thread with my findings.

You can't count the controlled region CEPs for that Company Goal Card. Only the ones in your hand, which is what I think you stated. There is a maximum

shieldwolf wrote:

The market seemed to float between 1,2,3 most of the game. By the end we cranked it to four.

I would love to hear from people how they've solved these problems.

Some initial thoughts on fixes. Make it so you can only take vps from tracks not $. Can't propose more than 2 items at a region till they are installed. Once a factory can no longer be built it cannot be proposed. The first player auction variant might make it more interesting as well.


Also note that if there are no more CEPs in the market the market price can't rise as the stipulation for that event to happen is to have 2 CEPs from the bank placed into the market and then increment the price up one.

Also remember that after each decade a disaster event has to handled which may lead to loss of tech cubes. If it is below 350 ppm you discard that card and switch the face up card into that area and flip up another card that is in the pile. Go to summits with the other losings players to gain VPs by going up the expertise track. Remember that each of your expertise is counted at the end of the game during the Distribute income to ALL players regardless of 1st or 2nd position; every player token on the track is counted. Convert those to VPs instead of coins to try to catch up to the leader.

Try to create combos with the CEP market by buying a CEP from the market when it is low and installing a Forestry proposal to gain 2 CEPs from the market and bringing up the market value potentially twice in the same turn.

I hope this helps and addresses your concerns with the game. Stalemates suck, but I love the tension that this game delivers! Once that stalemate breaks, all hell breaks lose and VPs are scored all over the place.

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