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Rise and Decline of the Third Reich» Forums » Rules

Subject: British grants to France. rss

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chris walsh
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Hi again, people.
My opponent and I were just wondering if Britain can send grants to France in 1940.
We're figuring there's no real problem but if anyone could give an up or down on this, most appreciated.
Thanks!
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Doug Poskitt
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cccw wrote:
Hi again, people.
My opponent and I were just wondering if Britain can send grants to France in 1940.
We're figuring there's no real problem but if anyone could give an up or down on this, most appreciated.
Thanks!


I thought there was a rule preventing that. However, a look through the rule book does not see an explicit prevention. All there is ... is: 15.56 Neither France nor the U.S. may grant BRPs until Spring 1942.

Yet another interesting question. Is there a rule that prohibits Britain sending BRPs to France? Have I missed it?
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Konstantinos K
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I believe the answer is YES. Britain can send BRPs to France, although France typically is not in need of them...so it rarely happens.
Also, it would make no sense to ban Britain for donating BRP to France, especially since Italy and Germany can donate BRP to each other even BEFORE they are actively allied! But yes, there is an explicit ban of France donating BRPs as Doug pointed out.
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Patrick Bauer
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I was also under the apparent false impression that the answer was no, but consider this:

16.6 Each grant of 20 BRPs or fraction thereof to another
nation counts as one SR against the granting nation’s
limit. BRPs travel from capital to capital and thus may
not be SR'ed if the capital of either country is adjacent to
an enemy unit
.


and

34.1 British units may not be in the Maginot line, Paris,
Marseilles, nor the city of Vichy. They may pass through
these hexes during Movement or SR, but may not pause
in them at any point of a turn. If forced to retreat into
such a prohibited hex they are eliminated.


Are BRP's units? If so then they can't stop in Paris.


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craig grinnell
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I initially had that thought.
But a BRP can't be a unit since it has no counter to represent it on the map.

But then again, this is Third Reich... The rules that DARE you to stretch them
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Mark Meck
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I never thought there was a restriction on Britain to France grants. However, I would be hard pressed to think of a time it would have been useful in games I've played.


Caveat : My reply is based on my reading of the 3R4 rules. Not the Director's Cut Super Deluxe edition with the flow chart on pregame rules interpretations which must be agreed upon for rules 1 - 55, which is found in the files area.








Edited to add caveat.
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Konstantinos K
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grinnell1969 wrote:
I initially had that thought.
But a BRP can't be a unit since it has no counter to represent it on the map.

But then again, this is Third Reich... The rules that DARE you to stretch them


IMHO, BRPs are definitely NOT units! But how about Airbase Counters? Are there units, or no? I think a counter and a unit are not the same thing. Of course, This can be a can of worms, as there is this article in "The general" called "Vichy and the East" by William Searight that suggests all kinds of tricks and shenanigans, based on the premise: "an airbase counter is not a unit".
I should add though that this article is quite controversial and if you use the tactics outlined there some players will consider them illegal. I actually believe they are illegal as well.
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Konstantinos K
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Wolven wrote:


Caveat : My reply is based on my reading of the 3R4 rules. Not the Director's Cut Super Deluxe edition with the flow chart on pregame rules interpretations which must be agreed upon for rules 1 - 55, which is found in the files area.


Where exactly is this "director's cut super deluxe edition"?I can't find it in the files section!
 
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Paul Edwards
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It's very useful when the French and Germans really go at it hard with lots of losses on the French side. You can spend all the French BRPs in Spring and Summer and have the British send 15 BRPs or so for that last Fall offensive option before France surrenders. It's hard to time it perfectly though because as mentioned earlier it's only legal if the Germans don't have a unit adjacent to Paris.
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chris walsh
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rokeater wrote:
It's very useful when the French and Germans really go at it hard with lots of losses on the French side. You can spend all the French BRPs in Spring and Summer and have the British send 15 BRPs or so for that last Fall offensive option before France surrenders. It's hard to time it perfectly though because as mentioned earlier it's only legal if the Germans don't have a unit adjacent to Paris.



Yep, our game dragged out into the Winter of 40 in the West - and we had never thought to use the rule before either. Interesting to see all the "this had never occurred to me" comments - with us too, thinking it comes with the territory of all the rule 34 Anglo/French restrictions.

Thanks a lot for the replies all. The campaign ended as rokeater said - missed the 'German units next to Paris bit' ... and so there was no final fling offensive for the Allies.
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chris walsh
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kostaskav wrote:
grinnell1969 wrote:
I initially had that thought.
But a BRP can't be a unit since it has no counter to represent it on the map.

But then again, this is Third Reich... The rules that DARE you to stretch them


IMHO, BRPs are definitely NOT units! But how about Airbase Counters? Are there units, or no? I think a counter and a unit are not the same thing. Of course, This can be a can of worms, as there is this article in "The general" called "Vichy and the East" by William Searight that suggests all kinds of tricks and shenanigans, based on the premise: "an airbase counter is not a unit".
I should add though that this article is quite controversial and if you use the tactics outlined there some players will consider them illegal. I actually believe they are illegal as well.



We have been known to milk these rules to the degree of placing unused airbase counters in controlled hexes friendly ground units can't reach - all to the end of preventing enemy units from retreating in an attrition option ... hence causing massive losses.
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James Cox
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kostaskav wrote:
...France typically is not in need of them...so it rarely happens...


Unless the allies are going hard against Italy, or hard against Germany should Germany try the East First gambit, there is little need for France to have BRPs - their force pool is usually built out just fine with their own BRPs. But in the event of this example, Britain might very well need all its BRPs for its own use, so... again, no need to send to France.

If anything, a player should be thinking of harvesting from France before it falls. Hence the rule preventing exactly that.
 
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James Cox
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SewerStarFish wrote:
I was also under the apparent false impression that the answer was no, but consider this:

16.6 Each grant of 20 BRPs or fraction thereof to another
nation counts as one SR against the granting nation’s
limit. BRPs travel from capital to capital and thus may
not be SR'ed if the capital of either country is adjacent to
an enemy unit
.


and

34.1 British units may not be in the Maginot line, Paris,
Marseilles, nor the city of Vichy. They may pass through
these hexes during Movement or SR, but may not pause
in them at any point of a turn. If forced to retreat into
such a prohibited hex they are eliminated.


Are BRP's units? If so then they can't stop in Paris.




No. There sure are a lot of words in those rules, and they sure do seem to treat it as if it were units, so I can see making the leap. But no where does it state BRPs are units. I think that's "reading into" something a little to deep. I think the desinger's intent was to treat the logistics and infrastructure and abstract-isms surrounding BRPs and their transfer in similar constrictions to SRs, is all.
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James Cox
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kostaskav wrote:
grinnell1969 wrote:
I initially had that thought.
But a BRP can't be a unit since it has no counter to represent it on the map.

But then again, this is Third Reich... The rules that DARE you to stretch them


IMHO, BRPs are definitely NOT units! But how about Airbase Counters? Are there units, or no? I think a counter and a unit are not the same thing. Of course, This can be a can of worms, as there is this article in "The general" called "Vichy and the East" by William Searight that suggests all kinds of tricks and shenanigans, based on the premise: "an airbase counter is not a unit".
I should add though that this article is quite controversial and if you use the tactics outlined there some players will consider them illegal. I actually believe they are illegal as well.


I would say airbase counters ARE units! Aren't ships? Aren't 5-4 air? (or any denomination of air, for that matter.)

An airbase is definitely a unit because...
What is an AB IRL? It is mostly a bunch of horizontal engineers (read: construction troops) that do massive work up front, followed by a bunch of service/support troops doing airbase operations: fueling, maintenance & repair, operations, logistics, ordnance, etc etc. Go to any airbase in almost any military both back in the day and today, and you'll almost invariably find "units" operating the airbase, and thier names will be suchly: "XYZ Air Base Wing", or "123 Aerial Embarkation Port Squadron", or similar
.
Yes, other than the grass, the asphalt, some concrete, and the buildings, an "airbase" is very very much a "unit(s)".
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James Cox
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rokeater wrote:
It's very useful when the French and Germans really go at it hard with lots of losses on the French side. You can spend all the French BRPs in Spring and Summer and have the British send 15 BRPs or so for that last Fall offensive option before France surrenders. It's hard to time it perfectly though because as mentioned earlier it's only legal if the Germans don't have a unit adjacent to Paris.


This makes the previous point, not refutes it: "rarely needed"
 
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James Cox
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cccw wrote:
kostaskav wrote:
grinnell1969 wrote:
I initially had that thought.
But a BRP can't be a unit since it has no counter to represent it on the map.

But then again, this is Third Reich... The rules that DARE you to stretch them


IMHO, BRPs are definitely NOT units! But how about Airbase Counters? Are there units, or no? I think a counter and a unit are not the same thing. Of course, This can be a can of worms, as there is this article in "The general" called "Vichy and the East" by William Searight that suggests all kinds of tricks and shenanigans, based on the premise: "an airbase counter is not a unit".
I should add though that this article is quite controversial and if you use the tactics outlined there some players will consider them illegal. I actually believe they are illegal as well.



We have been known to milk these rules to the degree of placing unused airbase counters in controlled hexes friendly ground units can't reach - all to the end of preventing enemy units from retreating in an attrition option ... hence causing massive losses.


Having just opined minutes ago that AB counters are indeed units, I have never agreed with nor would ever do, that bogus blocking attrition retreat shtick that you just described.
Think of it IRL:
There's massive attrition across the front. Through a combination of limited local offensives, differences in replacement and reinforcement allocations, differences POL and ammo allocations, and just plain dumb luck, unit #49 of 512 friendly units arrayed across the front just so happens to be the unit that a country must retreat x-number of kilometers for controlled retrograde/reorganization purposes (this is what attrition combat in 3R replicates). Now, imagine my above scenario IRL if the side conducting the attacks just so happens to put air force airfield engineers, air force pallet loading squadrons, air force parachute riggers, air force warehouse men, air force POL specialists, and air force commissary employees astride the enemy units' retrograde route. You're telling me that the retreating enemy unit is just gonna throw their hands up in the air and be annihilated in-place?! Because some rear-area air force troops are in their way?! I would very much doubt that. I cannot think of even a Thai conscript reserve border police battalion, or a Zimbabwean civil irregular defense force, either at 50% effective strength and out of supply, that wouldn't be able to brush aside even US air force troops if it meant their lives depended on it.

Sorry, air force dudes...
 
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Oh my God They Banned Kenny
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BRP grants are not units, however, they must abide by some SR restrictions. That being said, the French-British cooperation rules are not applicable to BRP grants, IMHO. In any case, British units can move through Paris, so IMHO a BRP grant would not be ending the turn in Paris and remaining there, it 'disappears' immediately upon arrival.
 
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