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Subject: (Ans: No] International Market, using new Assistant for placement rss

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Jay Ackerman
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In the International Market, there are two ways to hire a new worker for free: On the top, you acquire a tile and place it on your board on the Hire an Assistant space. On the bottom, by using one of the Hire an Assistant spaces.

In either case:
1) Can I use this new hire as the assistant I place in the IM? (Note: a grey box in the rules says "A player who has no available Assistants may not perform this action". My assumption has been this is true only if you are NOT acquiring a new asst.)

2) If I already have 4 Assistants at their desks, I assume I can directly use the new Assistant in the IM without losing any Assistants. Correct?
 
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Jacob Walker
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Re: International Market, using new Assistant for placement
The first step of each of the actions in the international market is to place an assistant in the eligible spot. Then you gain any bonuses. You don't have the assistant to begin with, so you can't place it to gain the bonus.

Edit: I suppose I really only answered question #1. As for question #2, what you are describing is equivalent to first using one of the assistants at their desk and then replacing placing the new assistant in the now empty desk, which is the order prescribed by the rules. So, your scenario in #2 works, but only because you had an available assistant at a desk. If you have no available assistants, you cannot use the international market at all.
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Jay Ackerman
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Re: International Market, using new Assistant for placement
eagleeye42 wrote:
The first step of each of the actions in the international market is to place an assistant in the eligible spot. Then you gain any bonuses. You don't have the assistant to begin with, so you can't place it to gain the bonus.


It's actually the last step. (Step 4)
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Jacob Walker
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Re: International Market, using new Assistant for placement
SliceOfBread wrote:
eagleeye42 wrote:
The first step of each of the actions in the international market is to place an assistant in the eligible spot. Then you gain any bonuses. You don't have the assistant to begin with, so you can't place it to gain the bonus.


It's actually the last step. (Step 4)


Fair enough, upon re-consulting the rules, it does say you should do that last. Give me a moment, and I'll consult the rule-book and get back to you with my "expert" opinion.

Edit: In the most recent edition of the rule-book available online, I think #1 could be argued as permissible. However, if #1 is okay, I'd say #2 doesn't work, because when you gain the assistant, it should immediately go to an empty desk (since you should resolve the entire bonus action before placing the assistant, according to the order suggested in the rules). No empty desks exist, so you would lose the bonus assistant, and be forced to place one of the ones you already owned.

Double Edit: I'll note that in the rule-book available on the geek, I am struggling to find the greyed-out box that says you must have an assistant to perform the action. I think that's the crucial thing. Is having an assistant already part of your eligibility, or do you just need to have the assistant by the time you hit the last step of the action? Again, I lean towards having it already, but the rules I have available to me right now don't appear to make this explicit (unless I'm blind).
 
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Paulo Renato
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Re: International Market, using new Assistant for placement
I had this discussion with Vital about how the rules were spelled out, that it seemed you would get the benefits before having to do the "payments" and he obviously said that first you have to make the "payments" to get access to the benefits, in this case, the Payment is placing the Assistant in the IM...

To me it's obvious (not by the rules) that to get access to the bonus you are sending the assistant to do a job and his job is to go a specific place, so if when you start the action you don't have the assistant to place you won't be able to get whatever bonus is in the space you want to occupy...

First you occupy then you get the bonus!

I think the rules should be updated to be super clear on that... maybe an errata or an FAQ.

It makes no sense getting the benefit before you do the action
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Jay Ackerman
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Re: International Market, using new Assistant for placement
Muse23PT wrote:
I had this discussion with Vital about how the rules were spelled out, that it seemed you would get the benefits before having to do the "payments" and he obviously said that first you have to make the "payments" to get access to the benefits, in this case, the Payment is placing the Assistant in the IM...

To me it's obvious (not by the rules) that to get access to the bonus you are sending the assistant to do a job and his job is to go a specific place, so if when you start the action you don't have the assistant to place you won't be able to get whatever bonus is in the space you want to occupy...

First you occupy then you get the bonus!

I think the rules should be updated to be super clear on that... maybe an errata or an FAQ.

It makes no sense getting the benefit before you do the action


This would imply that for the Auction section you would not receive influence until after you paid (and therefore cannot use the Influence to discount the payment).That's a pretty major errata.

Also, I disagree with the "obvious"-ness. To me, you are bidding or schmoozing a client but you must be going so (at the end of the turn) you send one of your fine assistants to fill in for you. Perhaps one you just hired.
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Paulo Renato
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Re: International Market, using new Assistant for placement
SliceOfBread wrote:
Muse23PT wrote:
I had this discussion with Vital about how the rules were spelled out, that it seemed you would get the benefits before having to do the "payments" and he obviously said that first you have to make the "payments" to get access to the benefits, in this case, the Payment is placing the Assistant in the IM...

To me it's obvious (not by the rules) that to get access to the bonus you are sending the assistant to do a job and his job is to go a specific place, so if when you start the action you don't have the assistant to place you won't be able to get whatever bonus is in the space you want to occupy...

First you occupy then you get the bonus!

I think the rules should be updated to be super clear on that... maybe an errata or an FAQ.

It makes no sense getting the benefit before you do the action


This would imply that for the Auction section you would not receive influence until after you paid (and therefore cannot use the Influence to discount the payment).That's a pretty major errata.

Also, I disagree with the "obvious"-ness. To me, you are bidding or schmoozing a client but you must be going so (at the end of the turn) you send one of your fine assistants to fill in for you. Perhaps one you just hired.


Like I said, I talked to Vital about this question you had, the exact same phrasing for the first question... I can tell you the date and hour I asked him this because it was a google hangout written conversation, if you need it I can post screenshots then you just have to translate from Portuguese to English... My question to him was, and I'm going to quote the conversation:

"Hey, one other question... Can you go to the International Market without having an assistant available, pick the auction and one of the spaces that gives a free assistant and use that assistant to ocupy that space?
I don't think it makes much sense, mas following the Order of Resolution from the rules that interpretation would be possible.
I think the order should be Place the Assistant, pagar the costs, receive the rewards, but the established order isn't that one."


Vital reply was:

"The access conditions to the international market say you have to have an assistant available, see in the rules the conditions to go to the market"

Like I said above... you need to have an assistant available... I'm not debating the validity of your claim, I had the exact same doubt as you did, to me the rules aren't well written there, it makes no sense being able to receive the reward of occupying a space with the reward you get from occupying that space... that is why I say it's Obvious, because it's common sense that if a space gives a reward when it's occupied first you need to occupy it to receive the reward, it's not the other way around!
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Jay Ackerman
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Re: International Market, using new Assistant for placement
Paulo, I thank you very much for this information.
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Vital Lacerda
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2010 - Vinhos, 2012 - CO2, 2014 - kanban, 2015 - The Gallerist, 2016 - Vinhos Deluxe, 2017 - Lisboa, 2018 - Escape Plan, CO2 Second Chance and Dragon Keepers - Maybe: 2019 - ROTW Portugal and On Mars, 2020 - Kanban Deluxe Edition and Máquina
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Re: International Market, using new Assistant for placement
Paulo is right. You need to have the assistent to be able to go to the international market.
Sorry if the rules are not explicit about it.
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Moisés Solé
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I read this as that you have to use one of your existing assistants (that's why you require one), and it is only placed in the last step because that is logical. You take the tile, resolve it, and now you can occupy the spot.

In other words, the payment is made when you selected the action, the putting your assistant in the spot physically is not the payment itself, it's the result of it.
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