Recommend
5 
 Thumb up
 Hide
27 Posts
1 , 2  Next »   | 

The King's Abbey» Forums » Rules

Subject: Viking cards in a 2p game rss

Your Tags: Add tags
Popular Tags: [View All]
William Yoder
United States
Sauquoit
New York
flag msg tools
mbmb
In a 2p game, only 2 dice are rolled for the Viking attack. But if the first player cannot match the higher of the 2 dice, then the Vikings win and everyone loses a building. That seems a bit harsh and random, since it all depends on whether one player can match one die

At other player counts, as long as there are more dice than peasants, the players will win. So even if the first player cannot match the first die, there's still a chance that other players can match other dice. But in a 2p game, if the first player cannot match the higher of the 2 black dice, then everyone loses.

Any suggestions of how to make the Viking attack in a 2p game less random and luck-based? For instance if first player cannot match the higher of the 2 black dice, he has the option of matching the lower one. Would love to hear Randy weigh in on this.

BTW A great game! Bravo Randy and thanks.
2 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Gabriel Szaszko
United States
Pennsylvania
flag msg tools
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
wyoder1 wrote:
In a 2p game, only 2 dice are rolled for the Viking attack. But if the first player cannot match the higher of the 2 dice, then the Vikings win and everyone loses a building. That seems a bit harsh and random, since it all depends on whether one player can match one die


I dunno... being given up to nine dice (at least) to roll at the start of your turn means that the odds of rolling each number or having only one number from 1-6 missing in your dice pool are pretty good.

In a 2p game, for me, the increasing prospect of Vikings cards means that I need to be very judicious about my use of dice on Crusades I can't complete in a single round.

I prefer taking a conservative strategy within the rules as written versus jiggering with them.
 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
William Yoder
United States
Sauquoit
New York
flag msg tools
mbmb
I agree Gabriel. I too prefer playing with rules as written. But it does seem that Vikings present more threat in a 2p game than other player counts.

As soon as you roll 3 or more dice, everything's no longer completely dependent on what the first player can do. Yes of course the second player might not have a match either. But the odds of 2 players not matching their Viking dice are a lot less than the odds of one player not matching his Viking die. And then the second player always has the option of matching another die as well on his turn.

I'm too lazy to remember and run the probabilities of the first player not matching the first Viking die. But basically that pretty well determines whether the players win or lose against the Vikings in a 2p game. And that means that the chance of losing a Viking battle in a 2p game is higher than in a 3p or 4p game.

In the original rules, you had to roll 3 black dice in a 2p game. Yes that meant players had to use more dice to defend themselves. But at least the odds of winning the battle were about the same as in a 3p or 4p game. I just wondered if the designer realized that cutting a 2p battle down to only 2 dice made the Viking threat significantly more dangerous. And I was hoping for some kind of variant that would make the threat level of a Viking attack in a 2p game closer to what it is in higher player counts. And it would be great if the designer himself could offer one.
 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Randy Rathert
United States
Missoula
Montana
flag msg tools
designer
badge
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
We had a tremendous amount of play testing and yes this came up, but this is why you may not always want to be the start player.

It may seem random but you never know when Vikings will show up and if you are ready... I like the random style here because in the abbey they would never know when the vikings would attack.
6 
 Thumb up
0.02
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Heike Pohl
msg tools
mbmb
Hello,
I´m also very disappointed about the 2p rules for vikings. You don´t have any Chance if the first Player don´t have the suitable dice. You always loose! It is impossible to place more dice then meeples. This can´t be and it is not possible to use the sack. It sucks and have nothing to do with difficult Level.

The first player have a disadvantage already by loosing a meeple, but with this rule even the second player have no chance.
Regarding to real life two persons fight, the first one dies but the second can be a hero and kill all bad persons :-) But here this isn´t possible - all are loosers.

 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Jeff Fike
United States
Minnesota
flag msg tools
mbmbmbmb
You guys are looking at this from the opposite position I do.

I'm disappointed in the 2 player VIking rule (same conclusion as you) but my perspective is different.

In a 2 player game, if you want sheep or cows, forget about it. They are useless and worthless. Why? Because the 1st player can intentionally fail the Vikings and not only do you lose a building, but you lose all your animals as well!

So if you want to have a farm, you have to spend one die, every turn, guaranteeing you are the first player. You have to also spend 2 dice every turn, when Vikings come to fulfill BOTH Viking dice or else you lose everything.
1 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Heike Pohl
msg tools
mbmb
Thats true. As I know in the prototyp you roll 3 dices in a 2p play. In That Case You have a chance to have more dices then meeples. We will try this. The regular rule is not good and unfair in my opinion for 2p.
 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Ernst Juergen Ridder
Germany
flag msg tools
badge
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
In my last solo game I lost three times a building with a peasant to the vikings, because the dummy always was starting player who couldn't match the first die. That's not so bad as you may think. In a solo game you cannot avoid the dummy becoming starting player, because that is determined by dice. Nevertheless you are able to reach a good score. Viking raids are "kismet", it comes as it will. Imo that is well designed. You have to play accordingly.
 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Mahmut Dural
Germany
Bad Lippspringe
flag msg tools
First of all i am sorry for my bad english. I hope you will understand what i mean.
My opinion is a variant for the 2PGame. The players dont loose by a tie. They win but the winner dont get the Extra prestige. that means, when the first player have no dice which matches, than they dont losse because, the second player can match the second Viking dice. Now its a tie, but in this variant, the players win. The winner gets no Extra prestige and the players dont loose a building. Hope you understand!
 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Pete Thane
England
Brough
East Yorkshire
flag msg tools
badge
Up the Tigers
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
I agree the Vikings cards are extremely tough in a 2 player game and can be used to hose an opponent quite dramatically with the loss of both a building and all their animals and as Jeff mentions above can render the farms building as pointless in a two player game.

I played my first game last night (a two player) and inadvertently got the Vikings rule wrong but on reflection this seemed to work well in a 2 player environment. The way I played it was, if the 1st player could not match the 1st dice they lost the prestige and discarded a peasant as usual, but in to the box and not onto the card, and the 2nd player then had the option to place both dice if they wished to make sure the raid was defeated and gain all the rewards associated with this.
 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Stephane Lebeau
Canada
Ottawa
Ontario
flag msg tools
badge
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
If a player has a die matching "their" first Viking die in the queue, do they have to play it, or can they choose not to, thereby losing a peasant?

My copy of the rules state:

"Then beginning with the starting player, they MUST (the author's emphasis) take one of their dice that matches the 1st black die on top of the column or lose a peasant."

My interpretation is that a player MUST use the matching die if they have it; if they do not have a matching die, then they MUST lose a peasant and 1 prestige point.

Should this be read as:

"Then beginning with the starting player, they can choose to either:
a) take one of their dice that matches the 1st black die on top of the column
or
b) lose a peasant (and 1 prestige point)"?
 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Ernst Juergen Ridder
Germany
flag msg tools
badge
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
StephaneLebeau wrote:
If a player has a die matching "their" first Viking die in the queue, do they have to play it, or can they choose not to, thereby losing a peasant?

My copy of the rules state:

"Then beginning with the starting player, they MUST (the author's emphasis) take one of their dice that matches the 1st black die on top of the column or lose a peasant."

My interpretation is that a player MUST use the matching die if they have it; if they do not have a matching die, then they MUST lose a peasant and 1 prestige point.

Should this be read as:

"Then beginning with the starting player, they can choose to either:
a) take one of their dice that matches the 1st black die on top of the column
or
b) lose a peasant (and 1 prestige point)"?


In my opinion your interpretation is correct. If you read the complete paragraph and the example, there is no doubt: If it's your turn and you have a matching die, you have to use it. No choice. Only if you have already placed one or more dice, you may decide not to place further dice, even if you could, but to pass instead.
 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Stephane Lebeau
Canada
Ottawa
Ontario
flag msg tools
badge
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
androgeus wrote:
StephaneLebeau wrote:
If a player has a die matching "their" first Viking die in the queue, do they have to play it, or can they choose not to, thereby losing a peasant?

My copy of the rules state:

"Then beginning with the starting player, they MUST (the author's emphasis) take one of their dice that matches the 1st black die on top of the column or lose a peasant."

My interpretation is that a player MUST use the matching die if they have it; if they do not have a matching die, then they MUST lose a peasant and 1 prestige point.

Should this be read as:

"Then beginning with the starting player, they can choose to either:
a) take one of their dice that matches the 1st black die on top of the column
or
b) lose a peasant (and 1 prestige point)"?


In my opinion your interpretation is correct. If you read the complete paragraph and the example, there is no doubt: If it's your turn and you have a matching die, you have to use it. No choice. Only if you have already placed one or more dice, you may decide not to place further dice, even if you could, but to pass instead.


If that's the case, then Jeff Fike's comment above about the first player "intentionally" failing the Vikings card doesn't make sense; it would be up to random chance as to whether that player rolled the same value as the top-most Viking die.
 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Stephane Lebeau
Canada
Ottawa
Ontario
flag msg tools
badge
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
schmoo34 wrote:
You guys are looking at this from the opposite position I do.

I'm disappointed in the 2 player VIking rule (same conclusion as you) but my perspective is different.

In a 2 player game, if you want sheep or cows, forget about it. They are useless and worthless. Why? Because the 1st player can intentionally fail the Vikings and not only do you lose a building, but you lose all your animals as well!

So if you want to have a farm, you have to spend one die, every turn, guaranteeing you are the first player. You have to also spend 2 dice every turn, when Vikings come to fulfill BOTH Viking dice or else you lose everything.


Unless this is happening every turn, wouldn't you almost always have another building to choose to remove that isn't a farm? At the very least, you start with a non-farm building at the start of the game, so you could choose to remove that one instead.
 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Pete Thane
England
Brough
East Yorkshire
flag msg tools
badge
Up the Tigers
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
The main issue for me is if the 1st player cannot match the top dice then the Viking card automatically fails and the 2nd player also suffers the penalty due to the start player's poor roll. That is even if the 2nd player could match both dice.

For me it would be better if the 1st player lost a peasant etc. but if they wished the 2nd player could place both dice to defeat the viking threat and thus gain the prestige from this and prevent the building (and possible animal etc.)loss.
 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Ernst Juergen Ridder
Germany
flag msg tools
badge
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
schmoo34 wrote:
You guys are looking at this from the opposite position I do.

I'm disappointed in the 2 player VIking rule (same conclusion as you) but my perspective is different.

In a 2 player game, if you want sheep or cows, forget about it. They are useless and worthless. Why? Because the 1st player can intentionally fail the Vikings and not only do you lose a building, but you lose all your animals as well!

So if you want to have a farm, you have to spend one die, every turn, guaranteeing you are the first player. You have to also spend 2 dice every turn, when Vikings come to fulfill BOTH Viking dice or else you lose everything.


Isn't that a misunderstanding of the rules? Neither may the 1st player intentionally fail the Vikings -if he has a matching die he has to use it- nor must you lose your farm with your animals, because you may chose which building/tower to lose; you must lose your farm only, if you have no tower and no other buildings.
 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Ernst Juergen Ridder
Germany
flag msg tools
badge
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
belborough wrote:
The main issue for me is if the 1st player cannot match the top dice then the Viking card automatically fails and the 2nd player also suffers the penalty due to the start player's poor roll. That is even if the 2nd player could match both dice.


Nevertheless there is a difference between the 1st player having no matching die and the 2nd player having a matching die to face the 2nd die of the Vikings. Booth players lose a tower/building but the 1st player also loses 1 peasant and 1 PP, while the 2nd player gains 1 PP.

By the way, I don't understand the problem in losing a tower/building to the Vikings. If you lose a tower/building you are not alone, the other player loses a tower/building too. Viking raids were a hard thing. Losing a tower/building to the Vikings in the game is only a loss, but no reason for losing the game.
 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Pete Thane
England
Brough
East Yorkshire
flag msg tools
badge
Up the Tigers
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
In a 3+ player game the other players can counteract the 1st player not having a dice if between them they can place more dice than peasants lost but in a 2 player game the 2nd player does not have this opportunity which seems very harsh as a tie is a defeat. If they were allowed to place both then that would seem to be fairer.

Quote:
Losing a tower/building to the Vikings in the game is only a loss, but no reason for losing the game.


You are correct but it could mean the 2nd player effectively wasted the whole of a previous turns activities gathering resources etc as they are being punished for another player's shortcomings
 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Ernst Juergen Ridder
Germany
flag msg tools
badge
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
belborough wrote:
In a 3+ player game the other players can counteract the 1st player not having a dice if between them they can place more dice than peasants lost but in a 2 player game the 2nd player does not have this opportunity which seems very harsh as a tie is a defeat. If they were allowed to place both then that would seem to be fairer.

Quote:
Losing a tower/building to the Vikings in the game is only a loss, but no reason for losing the game.


You are correct but it could mean the 2nd player effectively wasted the whole of a previous turns activities gathering resources etc as they are being punished for another player's shortcomings


You are not "punished" for the weakness of another player.

Shouldn't we think thematically about it? If the Vikings raid your village all villagers bear the same fate. You may be the strongest fighter there, but if the Vikings are in the supremacy, all villagers suffer the same loss. If you are a good fighter, you gain 1 PP, the other loses 1 and loses a peasant, both lose a building/tower; your loss is the smaller one.

If that is an aspect of the game, that you dislike, then play without Vikings. It's allowed (see variants, page 17 of the rules), it's up to you.
But we are all strong fighters, aren't we, that don't mourn about fate in a game, that is good to us (1 PP) in an overall bad situation.

This game tells a story, it's not only boring optimization.devil
 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Jeff Pearce
msg tools
mbmb
Perhaps in a two player game as a variant, you could in the case of one player losing, that both players essentially have one building out of commision for the round - it's disabled, but it's still there. And to get it enabled, you would have to pay a price. Say - half of what the building cost is in coin (so if you got 4 points for it, you would pay 2 coins to enable it). In this case the vikings aren't overpowered in a two player game.

But I definitely think that disabling buildings could be put to greater use in any potential expansion.
 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Kevin Shillinglaw
Canada
Kitchener
Ontario
flag msg tools
badge
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
This is also harsh in the solo game. The dummy player has 6 dice rolled at the beginning of the game that can be used for Vikings.
 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
United States
Decatur
Georgia
flag msg tools
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
Deathstroke wrote:
This is also harsh in the solo game. The dummy player has 6 dice rolled at the beginning of the game that can be used for Vikings.


Yes, which is why it's crucial to maintain initiative in the solo game. You need to always have the option to place 2 of your dice in case the rival can't match it.

I always despair when the rival snatches initiative, because if a Viking card comes out next round there's a very good chance of losing a building.

1 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Charles Waterman
United States
Commerce Township
Michigan
flag msg tools
mbmbmbmbmb
ransta2 wrote:
We had a tremendous amount of play testing and yes this came up, but this is why you may not always want to be the start player.

It may seem random but you never know when Vikings will show up and if you are ready... I like the random style here because in the abbey they would never know when the vikings would attack.


I like that surprise element as well! However, I *do* think it seems unfair that in a 2p game the win/lose is all up to the first player. I hope Mr. Rathert will suggest a variant that could deal with this. I think I like the 3 dice suggestion as a starting point. Another possibility might be to say that the first player loses a peasant if they can't or choose not to place a die to defend against vikings, but that they don't place a peasant opposite any of the dice so that the second player could choose to place both dice if possible for the 5 Prestige? (After reflection I didn't like the second option)
 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Kevin Shillinglaw
Canada
Kitchener
Ontario
flag msg tools
badge
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
This is in another thread, but I thought I'd ask it here.

The solo rules state (and this is going from memory) that if Elias take the Initiative spot he takes the first player marker immediately. It also says that this means that Elias will go first when Vikings attack.

Is this correct or should he take the marker at the end of the turn during Rest?

If he takes it right away, then it can really screw with you as this happens before Vikings attack.

Any thoughts or clarifications or official rulings?
 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Alec Usticke
United States
Peekskill
New York
flag msg tools
mbmbmbmbmb
Deathstroke wrote:
The solo rules state (and this is going from memory) that if Elias take the Initiative spot he takes the first player marker immediately. It also says that this means that Elias will go first when Vikings attack.

Is this correct or should he take the marker at the end of the turn during Rest?

If he takes it right away, then it can really screw with you as this happens before Vikings attack.

Any thoughts or clarifications or official rulings?

I don't play solo, but event cards (such as Vikings) are drawn in phase 2 while initiative selection is in phase 5. Your suggestion doesn't make a difference.
 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
1 , 2  Next »   | 
Front Page | Welcome | Contact | Privacy Policy | Terms of Service | Advertise | Support BGG | Feeds RSS
Geekdo, BoardGameGeek, the Geekdo logo, and the BoardGameGeek logo are trademarks of BoardGameGeek, LLC.