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Subject: Star Trek for Talon - Boldly going ... where some may have possibly gone before at some point. rss

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I just got my copy in the mail this morning... and yeah, I think this is gonna work!

--edit--

This thread contains work in progress discussion of a Trek mod for Talon.
Please check the latest post for the up to date progress!

A complete Star Trek Mod for Talon is now available at:
https://docs.google.com/document/d/14Q7u-4FKxL_IayTsxJSFu5z3...



Please try it and provide feedback!

Future Work...
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Re: Boldly going ... where some may have possibly gone before at some point.
Awesome.
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Jim Krohn
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Re: Boldly going ... where some may have possibly gone before at some point.
Yes, yes, yes.....

I might not have the IP, but that doesn't stop the fans from using miniatures or making fan designs.
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Re: Boldly going ... where some may have possibly gone before at some point.
adorablerocket wrote:
I think this is gonna work!


Only until the Star Destroyer shows up...

Edit:
Actually just checked out the rest of your photos. Very cool SW ships for Armada (that should really make it into Talon...). What game are the Venators and such from?


 
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Tim Burnett
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Re: Boldly going ... where some may have possibly gone before at some point.
I might have to buy a 2nd copy of the game so I can do this. :-)

Is that an Attack Wing mini?
 
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William Cunningham
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Re: Boldly going ... where some may have possibly gone before at some point.
I believe it is. I play ST:AW and Talon and this might be something I do as well.
 
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Re: Boldly going ... where some may have possibly gone before at some point.
Sigrdrifa wrote:
Very cool SW ships for Armada (that should really make it into Talon...). What game are the Venators and such from?


Thanks! The Venators are 3D prints from Shapeways in Armada scale. At Kuat Drive Yards we're building fan made mods and variants to let people use the Armada system with Clone Wars and classic Star Wars Expanded Universe.

I can see easily scaling Talon hexes to accommodate Armada models, or simply creating new power curves for Star Wars Armada ships which map to Armada movement ruler settings. However I don't see myself doing that project because I don't think it would add a lot to the game system. Squadrons would still need a separate system and in the Star Wars universe ship power is not a resource that is shared between weapons, shields and engines, so you'd have to have a peer system to Talon's for weapons. I'd happily opine if someone starts that project, but it doesn't appeal to me.

On the other hand Talon's system *does* map very well to what we see in Star Trek, both in the shows and movies and in previous games...

timbur wrote:
I might have to buy a 2nd copy of the game so I can do this. :-) Is that an Attack Wing mini?


Yes it is. I've made a few modifications myself. ;-)

My Trek scale fleet is a mix of Attack Wing minis, shapeways prints, collectible Trek minis like Futura and Eaglemoss. I paint them all to add detail - you can find some in my gallery. I use a sliding scale that leaves a Constitution at roughly half the size of a Galaxy trying to find a balance between making things feel like they have relative differences, but still have presence on the table. What's nice is that my scale seems like it'll fit Talon hexes no problem (though I'll likely order a felt mat with double size hexes regardless).

You needn't buy a second set (though I encourage you too if you want to support GMT and Jim). This picture above is a mounting test using a roll of industrial doublestick on a acrylic washer. The lamination makes it easy to peel the mounting off.

Gluing mounting washes also wouldn't really hamper the use or aesthetics of one set (actually might give you a handle to pick up ships easier). Alternatively I also considered simply drilling a hole through the center of all the counters and thread it over a standard base. That's also a slight cosmetic hitch that wouldn't really affect anything.

Regardless I'm thinking right now that for the first cut at my Star Trek variant I'm probably going to go with log sheets or laminated ship cards off the board. I know it's a selling point of Talon for some (not for me, I've never found it a problem) but I think it imposes a constraint on the number of weapon systems and other possible ship upgrades that I'd like to relax. Talon is great exactly as it is for what it is, but if I'm going to theme it with Star Trek myself I'd like the freedom to get a little more nitty gritty into the chrome / lore of Trek.

Simple example is the classic Constitution class, which is supposed to have 360 phaser firing capability, but significantly weaker to the rear. In the Talon system that's hard to do with the limited number of weapon system banks that I can fit on the counter. I know that this also exposes different gameplay design challenges (a stern chase of attrition is no fun), but I'd like to see if it can be represented... *shrug* I may be wrong and fall back to the CA layout for the Terrans after all. :-)
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Jim Krohn
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Re: Boldly going ... where some may have possibly gone before at some point.
I have fiddled with weapon systems that allow firing to the rear. With the Phasers in this game, you can do that by giving a phaser 360 degree firing, but all shots to the rear do one less damage than what was rolled. That significantly penalizes rear firing. - now your max phaser damage is 1 instead of 2 for each one.

What i am saying is - you can do it without extra mounts.

I don't know how to score that ability point wise - Maybe 1.75 the cost of a single arc phaser?

Jim
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Re: Boldly going ... where some may have possibly gone before at some point.
adorablerocket wrote:
Sigrdrifa wrote:
Very cool SW ships for Armada (that should really make it into Talon...). What game are the Venators and such from?


Thanks! The Venators are 3D prints from Shapeways in Armada scale. At Kuat Drive Yards we're building fan made mods and variants to let people use the Armada system with Clone Wars and classic Star Wars Expanded Universe.



You, my good sirrah, are an EVIL EVIL man!! laugh
 
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Re: Boldly going ... where some may have possibly gone before at some point.
Jim Krohn wrote:
I have fiddled with weapon systems that allow firing to the rear. With the Phasers in this game, you can do that by giving a phaser 360 degree firing, but all shots to the rear do one less damage than what was rolled. That significantly penalizes rear firing. - now your max phaser damage is 1 instead of 2 for each one.


Ah, cool! I'll try that as well then! :-)
 
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Keith Anderson
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Re: Boldly going ... where some may have possibly gone before at some point.
So far I've resisted going down the customization path despite my love for Trek ships. I'm currently thinking that if I have the itch for Star Trek minis on the table I might just map existing Talon game designs for those minis. Talon CA -> Klingon D7 and Terran CA -> Federation Constitution (or maybe 1701A).

At some point I might not be able to resist doing designs but there is plenty of play in the pre-designed, tested and balanced ships so I'm resisting especially since the first step would be to rework the spreadsheet (which is fantastic for showing how things are costed) to make it more on-the-fly designing friendly such as entering all stats here and getting a summary with points there. Of course, I might suddenly decide to take up the project anyway.

 
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Re: Boldly going ... where some may have possibly gone before at some point.
One thing I wondered prior to purchase was how much ship differentiation could there be between classes on a 2" counter. I've been pleased to find that each class from Destroyer up to Dreadnought does feel like a definite step up in combat power. A few more shield, few more hull, another weapon or two, maybe a more powerful weapon all adds up to a ship that is decidedly more powerful. From class to class the ships are probably closer than other game systems but they are different enough and it does give a smaller ship a chance against one that is a class larger.

So if I do end up creating Star Trek designs I'll probably use similar point values for each class. Not to play them against Terran and Talon but because it feels like a good standard and keeps the designs within current tested ranges. Adding a lot more weapons would mean that most would not get available power to aid in recharging unless you gave the ship more power, perhaps exceeding the 6 point barrier, which in turn waters down the value of each power point which would make side slips and such relatively cheaper.

Random thoughts
 
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Re: Boldly going ... where some may have possibly gone before at some point.
Quote:
Adding a lot more weapons would mean that most would not get available power to aid in recharging unless you gave the ship more power, perhaps exceeding the 6 point barrier, which in turn waters down the value of each power point which would make side slips and such relatively cheaper.


If you want to limit power just to weapons, that is best done in the power phase. On the power curve, I would note that as a 6(1) or 6(2) with the number in parenthesis being a superscript (I don't know how to show that in this post). That 1 or 2 is then spent in the next power phase.
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Re: Boldly going ... where some may have possibly gone before at some point.
Jim Krohn wrote:
Quote:
Adding a lot more weapons would mean that most would not get available power to aid in recharging unless you gave the ship more power, perhaps exceeding the 6 point barrier, which in turn waters down the value of each power point which would make side slips and such relatively cheaper.


If you want to limit power just to weapons, that is best done in the power phase. On the power curve, I would note that as a 6(1) or 6(2) with the number in parenthesis being a superscript (I don't know how to show that in this post). That 1 or 2 is then spent in the next power phase.


Heh, it's pretty awesome to have the designer around to chime in on ways to mod his system for variants. Thanks Jim!
 
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Re: Boldly going ... where some may have possibly gone before at some point.
As someone that worked on the system, I think its incredibly flattering that people WANT to mod it and make it their own. Cool stuff.
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Re: Boldly going ... where some may have possibly gone before at some point.
Not really a mod yet, but a fun intro game I played to introduce a friend to the system...


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Re: Boldly going ... where some may have possibly gone before at some point.
Ok... not a mod yet either, but a template that I think I can use to explore my mod.

The inspiration is the center console in front of the captain's chair, with helm on one side of the main ship display and weapons on the other.



This alternate layout swaps the weapons and helm station... it's not "accurate" but I think it might look better. What do you all think.



I really found marking things like weapon charge and power curve on the ship to be more fiddly than I like (I'm used to games with off table information), however I really like showing shield status (and maybe hull status), so I'm going to do some alt base tokens sized for Attack Wing/X-Wing which have shield and hull readouts on them that you can mark off.

The idea is to have this whole thing as a laminated playing card. The power curve is right on it, and you indicate your current power level by blacking out the pips to the left of the power curve chart. This will make power curve planning easier than having to find the curve on the table.

I'm also thinking of putting the weapons tables on cards as well. This will allow for more diversity of weapons and make it easier to find the weapons for a particular class of ship. This is not a big deal for Talon given their small number of ships, but for my Trek project I envision doing ships across eras and with more races, so that kind of expandability is important to me ... and unlike GMT I'm not optimizing for fewer components!

Both layouts have room for more weapons and custom ship upgrades (like batteries and afterburners) than current Talon tokens... again one of my goals. I'm still not totally certain about how I want to represent the various weapon arcs... so I don't have a concrete idea there to show off. I definitely want to err on rolling more dice than Talon usually does, simply because it's satisfying.

Finally I've started thinking about other ship upgrades. One of things I'm finding about Talon is that it feels very "Flying Colors", but I want something between that and "Serpents of the Sea". Giant fleet engagements are cool, but I want a *few* more choices per ship - especially because in my crowd we can usually get 4-6 to play our space fleet games.

I'm thinking upgrades might provide that through cards that you can either charge with AP or exhaust to trigger effects (and refresh during the power phase). Things like a 'skilled helmsman' which you can discard to force reroll part of an enemy's attack. Or a 'genius chief engineer' which you can exhaust to add +1 to your repair attempt.



...and yes... I know the section headings are illegible, they're there only because it makes it look more like a the TOS panels.
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Re: Boldly going ... where some may have possibly gone before at some point.
What size do you anticipate for these cards? If they are small enough to lay beside each other on the table with print large enough for the opponent to also read then that would preserve having all information for both sides available which I'm really appreciating.

Really like the look of these. Cannot wait to see the Klingon version
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Re: Boldly going ... where some may have possibly gone before at some point.
This whole thing is just awesome....
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Re: Boldly going ... where some may have possibly gone before at some point.
So cool looking. I want to know how you made them!
 
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Re: Boldly going ... where some may have possibly gone before at some point.
Ok, I'm having too much fun! Here's a rough sketchy outline of a mod...


The classic Connie has it's rear firing arc, not that it will likely get charged much. On the other hand the front arcs do allow for a one two punch ... if you can wait to charge it up. It loses the "charged the wrong battery" dynamic, but that seems like an ok trade off. When I get to making weapon cards I'll try Jim's suggestion as an alternate with two batteries that can fire front and rear.


The refit gets better side shields, and a much improved set of phasers. I think likely that's enough - maybe even too much! You should see much bigger deltas to the Excelsior, Enterprise-C and Enterprise-D...

GamePlayer wrote:
What size do you anticipate for these cards? If they are small enough to lay beside each other on the table with print large enough for the opponent to also read then that would preserve having all information for both sides available which I'm really appreciating.

Right now they are regular playing card size. All the elements I've sized slightly larger than on the Talon counters or player aid card so it should be more legible. You could do them even larger .. like Armada ship card size, and still be able to fit quite a few on the table.

Quote:

Really like the look of these. Cannot wait to see the Klingon version


Thanks! Yeah, over the next week I'm looking forward to doing a TOS and TMP set of Klingon templates. It's kinda fun to adapt the SFX styling into a graphic design style.

First though I want do a run at a TNG Enterprise to test for element density and then if it's OK clean up the files for production.

chrono280 wrote:
So cool looking. I want to know how you made them!

Thanks again! They're done in Adobe Illustrator. I've spent all day downloading screen references of the various Trek movies and ships!
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Re: Boldly going ... where some may have possibly gone before at some point.
Quote:

Thanks again! They're done in Adobe Illustrator. I've spent all day downloading screen references of the various Trek movies and ships!


I'm jealous, its very cool looking.
 
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Re: Boldly going ... where some may have possibly gone before at some point.
If you can do this all at playing card size, someone could easily produce a deck of cards on artscow....
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Re: Boldly going ... where some may have possibly gone before at some point.
Fully Playable Art. Terrific work.

The 1701 looks to be SP=127. If the 1701-A's Phasers have the same properties as the 1701's Phasers, then it would also be SP=127. The 1701-A has more shield value but saves on Phasers' cost since combining 2 into a bank is slightly cheaper, and less flexible in play, then 2 in 2 separate banks. But you did mention "The refit gets better side shields, and a much improved set of phasers." so maybe you are looking at a new, more powerful Phaser type? After all, "the Enterprise redesign increases phaser power by channelling it through the main engines" :-)
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Re: Boldly going ... where some may have possibly gone before at some point.
And this is as far as I get tonite... (^_^);; expect much slower progress during the week!



There's some vauge thoughts here around excess (6.x) power being used to charge extra red slots during the power phase, and excess (6.y) speed being something that lets you move and twice in an impulse.

There's also a vauge thought around a structural integrity shield generator starting charged that you can turn off (at the cost of one hull) in order to get an extra AP in an impulse.

GamePlayer wrote:
Fully Playable Art. Terrific work.


Thanks again!

Quote:

The 1701 looks to be SP=127. If the 1701-A's Phasers have the same properties as the 1701's Phasers, then it would also be SP=127. The 1701-A has more shield value but saves on Phasers' cost since combining 2 into a bank is slightly cheaper, and less flexible in play, then 2 in 2 separate banks. But you did mention "The refit gets better side shields, and a much improved set of phasers." so maybe you are looking at a new, more powerful Phaser type? After all, "the Enterprise redesign increases phaser power by channelling it through the main engines" :-)


Oh, I haven't even cracked the spreadsheets yet, so thanks! I was indeed trying to hew close to the Talon CA as a rough reference point for the TOS Constitution class.

I'm wondering now about how the weapon costs work though. I would have thought from my (admittedly few) games, that it would be strictly better to group multiple phasers into a single weapon group that only requires one red to charge. The difference between the original and refit is one fewer red charge box to get both fully charged, however I see now it does required one extra AP to get the bank ready to go... hmmm. I always felt that the power phase charge cycle was the real tempo limiter and in that regard ENT-A's duals phases should be charging twice as fast as prior to the refit.

Maybe I'm missing something though if the formulas are penalizing it? I guess in general the "less flexible in play" matters a lot for weapons with long charge bars, but not the phasers maybe?

Have to think about the ENT-D's weapons next. I'm thinking two Torp Banks, one front arc only, the other front and rear. Then three phaser banks, with one being 360 and the other two being front/port and front/starboard respectively. Likely each bank will include two phasers ... I mentioned I like rolling lots of dice right?
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