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Codex: Card-Time Strategy – Deluxe Set» Forums » Strategy

Subject: How does Bashing beat Finesse? rss

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Bad Mojo
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I have only played 2 games so far, but in both games Finesse just owns hard. The first game was a slow win by playing cheap units barely using more than the neutral cards.

The second win was dominating by slapping down 3 dancer tokens one turn, turning them angry next turn, then giving them all +2/+2 to hit the base for 12 unblockable damage twice over the next 2 turns.

Someone recommended killing Finesse every chance, but with her cheap level up to max and have 3 cheap units in patrol to protect the dancer tokens how does that stop the 12 damage assault?!
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Andrew Hauge
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So, one thing I found as I was trying to set up combos as Finesse was that Bashing's units are just mega-value. The biggest way for Bashing to win in the matchup involves putting as much heavy pressure on Finesse as it can. I think that teching double Iron Man when you start Turn 2 is key, for instance. You want to tech up and drop mega-powerful units on Finesse ASAP, using them as blockers when need be, and using Wither to take care of weak minions.
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Bad Mojo
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That is exactly the strategy I went for. Revolver Ocelot and Iron Man should be scary, but Finesse doesn't care if they can set up chump blockers in patrol just to protect the dancers.
 
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K
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I'm kinda stumped on how to best play the Bashing side also. Finesse seems to have quite a few strategies to go for that really give Bashing a lot of trouble.
 
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Angelo Pavia
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While I'm no expert, in my opinion Bashing needs to prevent Finesse gaining tempo. If Finesse has the advantage, they can pull off some combos. I always attempt to prevent River reaching her max band ability, as that increases Finesse's potential substantially.
 
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Don
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Yeah kill finesse and she's out for a whole turn - no spells, weak units
 
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Bad Mojo
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How can Bashing kill Finesse before Tech II if Finesse has 3 cheap blockers?
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Jason Reid
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It seems to be a theme with Codex that the "mindless", sheer force specs (Bashing, the Red Faction) are actually, and perhaps counterintuitively, the harder ones to win with as a beginner.
 
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Bad Mojo
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Or it means the game is not as balanced as intended.
 
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Jason Reid
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Badmojojojo wrote:
Or it means the game is not as balanced as intended.


I'd bet money that the specific matchup of "Bashing vs Finesse" has been balanced close to exactly as intended.
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Chun Ping
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jasonwocky wrote:
Badmojojojo wrote:
Or it means the game is not as balanced as intended.


I'd bet money that the specific matchup of "Bashing vs Finesse" has been balanced close to exactly as intended.


i have so far won all my bashing games (4 games), a mix of PbP and live plays.

Yet, i have not won any with finesse (2 games)

so i think it all depends on how you play it. as a long time MTG red deck player, the bashing strategy is more intuitive to me. Finesse requires good tech decision to determine when to go for spells and when to go for rush. which is hard to balance for me.

i think inherently, some people play certain decks better.
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Nicolas Daoust
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When I went for a Virtuoso / Dance Partners build, my Bashing opponent got out an airship and killed River and my Grounded Guide on successive turns even though I had teched a response. My base was down to 4 health right afterwards.

Also, even with the Surplus, I generally had a hard time getting enough cards; one his side, he never lacked cards and his Tower cut through my cheap units.
 
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Bad Mojo
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Still hoping for an effective answer to this scenario: turn 7 Finesse has a fully leveled up Finesse, 3 cheap blockers in patrol, and 3 dancer tokens. Turn 8 the dancers flip to Angry and with the other spell all get +2/+2. All 3 attack for 12 damage. Turn 9 Finesse attacks with 2 dancers for the win.
 
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Chun Ping
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Badmojojojo wrote:
Still hoping for an effective answer to this scenario: turn 7 Finesse has a fully leveled up Finesse, 3 cheap blockers in patrol, and 3 dancer tokens. Turn 8 the dancers flip to Angry and with the other spell all get +2/+2. All 3 attack for 12 damage. Turn 9 Finesse attacks with 2 dancers for the win.


the answer is that at this time in Turn 7, it's too late, you have effectively lost the game long ago.


The key to this match up for bashing is killing river and Iron man. On defence, tower is EXTREMELY helpful.

Iron man on turn 3 will always trade 2 for 1.

Octlet or iron man + bloom/wither/spark/timely messenger can kill river at any level.

on offence, wrecking ball can keep their T2 down.

If they are using two steps, just use Boot or hired stomper.

you need to work on 2 for 1 trade to win the match up
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Nigel Buckle
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Even in the starter 1x1 hero game there's quite a bit of depth.

If you find you can't win with one hero, try switching sides - if you find you can't win playing either side then probably you're making poor choices, or you need to study the cards and make a plan.
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Andrew Hauge
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Okay, so here's how to approach this matchup from the early turns, because they're key to winning the rest of the matchup.

During the first two turns, neither side gets to see any cards that they've teched. Teched cards (including Finesse spells) only have a chance to appear in Turn 3 or later. So, there's a couple takeaways here. First, you more or less have an even footing with the opponent (depending on what you draw vs. what they draw for their starting hand). Second, you should do everything possible to kill River on Turn 2 or 3, to block her from any spells that she teched at the start of Turn 2, since she gets a full turn of "being-dead sickness". (I don't know if there's an in-game turn for it, but that delay where you can't summon her for a whole turn after she dies.)

Okay, so far so good. So you follow a standard gameplan at this point: worker one card, play one cards, possibly summon your hero if you need to. (As an aside, if you can cast Bloom on Troq early on, he becomes a really intimidating 3/4 that you can do some mighty things with; it's more than enough to deal with any individual blocker.) If you can take care of one of Finesse's cards by using just one of your cards, you're keeping pace.

Okay, but what if Finesse starts dumping more cards on the table? That's actually good for you! Remember that they only draw 2 cards plus however many cards they had in their hand last turn. So on Turn 1, if they worker one card, and play three cards, that leaves them with one card in hand. They discard it, and draw three cards next turn. Not only does this radically limit their options next turn, but it also means they're going to have problems cycling through their deck and getting to their good cards. (This is actually Finesse's big weakness: they want to play lots of cards, but that really cuts into their hand size.) Deal with their minions by spending as few cards as possible, maintain that hand advantage, and cycle your deck faster than they can so that you can get to your best cards quickly.

Cards that are useful in the early turns: Fruit Ninja (3 attack will slaughter anything that Finesse can put out, even River!), Older Brother (2 attack can take care of anything in the starter deck, though not River), Bloom (boosts most of your minions to 3 health, which is very hard for Finesse to deal with in a way that doesn't use up two cards), Wither (kills Brick Thief outright, and otherwise makes a lot of units into poor-value units)

As mentioned above, Tower is an invaluable way to protect yourself. Also, since the dancer tokens only have 1 health, you shouldn't have a lot of trouble dealing with them as they get summoned, provided you've got the brute force backup you need.

Quickly getting to Tech II so you can use Sneaky Pigs (and remember, you can tech in Tech II units before your Tech II is built) is a great way to take care of River when she's behind all those blockers.
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Bad Mojo
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Thank you, Andrew. I will try that. I need to try and recreate the turns to show you how powerful a 2 turn kill is because Finesse lady only needs to be present on one turn to bring in the dancers and flip them over. The tower can't kill a 4/4 and it doesn't allow the patrolled to see the attackers, right?
 
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K R
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I don't have experience, but I would imagine the Flagbearer in the Lookout spot would limit the early options of Finesse as well in regards to using spells. Wither and Spark become less appealing, and Bloom is of course limited in targets and it means slower dancers when they do get Harmony. Teching other finesse magic will eventually get around this, but that means time.

Of course, it requires timing the play and/or defending him.

I don't see how a Tower would help vs dancers, since the Tower only does its damage when they've already attacked. By then, it's too late.
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Bad Mojo
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The Flagbearer forces attackers to attack it first?
 
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Alan Kwan
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Badmojojojo wrote:
Thank you, Andrew. I will try that. I need to try and recreate the turns to show you how powerful a 2 turn kill is because Finesse lady only needs to be present on one turn to bring in the dancers and flip them over. The tower can't kill a 4/4 and it doesn't allow the patrolled to see the attackers, right?


The Tower helps patrollers to see an Invisible or Stealth attacker, but cannot stop "Unstoppable" ones. Angry Dancers are unstoppable because you can see their rage.

If Finesse arrives, casts Harmony, casts two more spells, and then casts Two Step to make two of the dancers partners and then "stop the music", you just have to assassinate the hero and Two Step will be gone. The three dancers can attack once for 6 and die to the Tower doing so. If it goes this way, Finesse has no way to keep on playing afterwards because she's out of cards.

If the Dancers attack for 10 or so and take a hit from the Tower, you can still assassinate the hero and the Dancers will die automatically as Two Step is disrupted.

The ruling is that when Finesse casts Two Step with Harmony in play, she must resolve Two Step first before the Dancer is summoned.
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Alan Kwan
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Badmojojojo wrote:
The Flagbearer forces attackers to attack it first?


The Flagbearer attracts "targeted" spells and effects. To taunt an attack, just place anyone in Squad Leader.
 
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Bad Mojo
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Alan Kwan wrote:
Badmojojojo wrote:
The Flagbearer forces attackers to attack it first?


The Flagbearer attracts "targeted" spells and effects. To taunt an attack, just place anyone in Squad Leader.


But that won't stop Flying and Sneak, right?
 
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trevor

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I'm sorry but this game has been play tested to death. The OP has played exactly 2 games and is already saying that Bashing can't beat Finesse?
 
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Bad Mojo
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Nope. I asked how. Reading is fundamental.
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trevor

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Badmojojojo wrote:
Nope. I asked how. Reading is fundamental.


Yes but people are giving you advice and you are rebutting everything, giving the impression you aren't really looking for strategy tips, just to vent.

Thanks though! I'll try that reading thing you talk about.....
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