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Subject: Disappointing Quality rss

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Dave Lartigue
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El Grande is a great game and a classic, and I am glad for this reprint to finally give me a chance to have it on my shelf. However, I have to say, this edition is kind of a disappointing representation of a great game.

First, there are the card typos. Not a huge deal, but good grief. In a prestige release, this should be caught.

The meeples. Meeples instead of cubes is an aesthetic choice, and there will be people on either side of that divide. Personally, I prefer cubes, but I can live with meeples. The ones in my box, however, varied in thickness, some were malformed, and generally seemed like they came from Joe's Discount Meeple Closeout Shop.

The wheels. The plastic pins that hold the wheels together aren't that great, and if you take them apart (to put in the thin plastic "washers" I overlooked the first time) you're severely weakening them.

The tower. El Grande is the Castillo. But this Castillo is small and puny, made of thin cardboard. It works, but it just feels flimsy.

In short, this edition feels like every possible corner was cut in production. None of these things would be a big deal in isolation, but all of it together does a disservice to a classic game. El Grande has been out of print for a while, and the last printing also had card issues, so many people, including myself, were really looking forward to this opportunity. I have the game, and I'll play it, but there's still a bit of sad trombone about it.

Furthermore, I just don't care about the expansions, and I don't know anyone who does. They'll likely never get touched, as the game is just fine without them. So they're just taking up space, embiggening the box, and jacking up the price.

I had thought about trying to trade this edition to someone who has the original, someone who might want the expansions and meeples and such, before I'd really dug into it, but now I don't think I could do so in clear conscience without revealing these issues and thus pretty much tanking the interest.

Like I said, it's playable, and I'll be playing it, but I'm really disappointed in the quality here.
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Chris Wilczewski
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+1 for using "embiggening"

I just ordered the game before I learned about the card typo issues. I didn't realize that the Castillo is also small and puny. I probably wouldn't have ordered it if I had seen this post beforehand.

Maybe we can enjoy the fact that this version is more color blind friendly?
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Joel L
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As someone who has only seen the Big Box (never played El Grande before receiving it), I think you're exaggerating the poor quality of this edition. I didn't notice anything beyond the typos (which are called out in the manual). The castillo is definitely not flimsy.
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Dave Lartigue
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Joel_L wrote:
As someone who has only seen the Big Box (never played El Grande before receiving it


ooooo kay
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I have the first English RGG printing of El Grande and all expansions. I also have the Big Box edition.

The typos are unfortunate and I agree with you on the pins that hold the wheels together. The problem there is that in the original printing the cardboard for the wheels was much thinner than the cardboard for the other tokens. The new printing used the same thick cardboard for the wheels as for the other components, but the plastic pins are the same size they are in the first printing. For the big box version to work you have to really compress the cardboard.

You didn't mention it, but the box is bigger than it needs to be. Also, the grand inquisitor is no longer a pawn like the king. It's just a card.

The meeples were an aesthetic choice. I thought I would hate them, but having played both ways, its a wash to me now.

But over all, the quality is dramatically improved from the original. The card quality is consistent across all expansions. The rules are coherent. There are many additional components for the expansions that did not exist before.

Being made of some kind of particle board, the original Castillo was more substantial but had production problems of its own. My copy of the Castillo didn't have the slots cut wide enough so it didn't slide together all the way. Plus it's a hideous eye-sore with the matt black laminate and the particle board edges. A smaller Castillo makes the board much easier to see for the person on that side of the table.

It's not perfect, but the only failings are the 2 card typos and the plastic pins for the dials. But these are production oversights, not intentional corner-cutting on quality. Fortunately they hardly interfere with game play. In every other way the production quality is superb and comparable to similarly priced games.

Overall the Big Box is an improvement over the original.
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A J
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I've only ever played the Big Box. There are a couple disappointments, like the typos and red/green choice (I am colorblind and have a difficult time with the color shades they chose for those two colors).

Other than that, I feel like it's a great Big Box production. It's nice to have the double-sided map, and all the expansions have their own slot to easily sort. The dials have to be "damaged" a bit when putting together, but it's not like you'll ever have to take it apart again, so no big deal there.

None of the other stuff you mention bother me at all.
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Heath Stockburn
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Legomancer wrote:
El Grande is a great game and a classic, and I am glad for this reprint to finally give me a chance to have it on my shelf. However, I have to say, this edition is kind of a disappointing representation of a great game.

First, there are the card typos. Not a huge deal, but good grief. In a prestige release, this should be caught.

The meeples. Meeples instead of cubes is an aesthetic choice, and there will be people on either side of that divide. Personally, I prefer cubes, but I can live with meeples. The ones in my box, however, varied in thickness, some were malformed, and generally seemed like they came from Joe's Discount Meeple Closeout Shop.

The wheels. The plastic pins that hold the wheels together aren't that great, and if you take them apart (to put in the thin plastic "washers" I overlooked the first time) you're severely weakening them.

The tower. El Grande is the Castillo. But this Castillo is small and puny, made of thin cardboard. It works, but it just feels flimsy.

In short, this edition feels like every possible corner was cut in production. None of these things would be a big deal in isolation, but all of it together does a disservice to a classic game. El Grande has been out of print for a while, and the last printing also had card issues, so many people, including myself, were really looking forward to this opportunity. I have the game, and I'll play it, but there's still a bit of sad trombone about it.

Furthermore, I just don't care about the expansions, and I don't know anyone who does. They'll likely never get touched, as the game is just fine without them. So they're just taking up space, embiggening the box, and jacking up the price.

I had thought about trying to trade this edition to someone who has the original, someone who might want the expansions and meeples and such, before I'd really dug into it, but now I don't think I could do so in clear conscience without revealing these issues and thus pretty much tanking the interest.

Like I said, it's playable, and I'll be playing it, but I'm really disappointed in the quality here.



Most of this is rubbish....

The only mistakes in the box are the card typos. These are so well known about that anyone looking into this game before purchasing, should easily be able to find out about the typos and make a decision as to wether it will bother them greatly before purchasing.

If you buy this game with the knowledge of the typos beforehand...shut up grumbling and moaning it is really really weary.

Anyone splashing out on a game of this price and renown without at first looking into it...well....that kind of impulsiveness and/or exuberance speaks for itself really.
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Chris Wilczewski
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What if you played El Grande 10th edition because one of your game group gamers owns it and you liked it enough that you went to CSI and bought it before researching it on BGG?

Is a complaint valid then?
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heathandliz wrote:
Legomancer wrote:
El Grande is a great game and a classic, and I am glad for this reprint to finally give me a chance to have it on my shelf. However, I have to say, this edition is kind of a disappointing representation of a great game.

First, there are the card typos. Not a huge deal, but good grief. In a prestige release, this should be caught.

The meeples. Meeples instead of cubes is an aesthetic choice, and there will be people on either side of that divide. Personally, I prefer cubes, but I can live with meeples. The ones in my box, however, varied in thickness, some were malformed, and generally seemed like they came from Joe's Discount Meeple Closeout Shop.

The wheels. The plastic pins that hold the wheels together aren't that great, and if you take them apart (to put in the thin plastic "washers" I overlooked the first time) you're severely weakening them.

The tower. El Grande is the Castillo. But this Castillo is small and puny, made of thin cardboard. It works, but it just feels flimsy.

In short, this edition feels like every possible corner was cut in production. None of these things would be a big deal in isolation, but all of it together does a disservice to a classic game. El Grande has been out of print for a while, and the last printing also had card issues, so many people, including myself, were really looking forward to this opportunity. I have the game, and I'll play it, but there's still a bit of sad trombone about it.

Furthermore, I just don't care about the expansions, and I don't know anyone who does. They'll likely never get touched, as the game is just fine without them. So they're just taking up space, embiggening the box, and jacking up the price.

I had thought about trying to trade this edition to someone who has the original, someone who might want the expansions and meeples and such, before I'd really dug into it, but now I don't think I could do so in clear conscience without revealing these issues and thus pretty much tanking the interest.

Like I said, it's playable, and I'll be playing it, but I'm really disappointed in the quality here.



Most of this is rubbish....

The only mistakes in the box are the card typo's. These are so well known about that anyone looking into this game before purchasing, should easily be able to find out about the typos' and make a decision as to weather it will bother them greatly before purchasing.

If you buy this game with the knowledge of the typos beforehand...shut up grumbling and moaning its is really really weary.

Anyone splashing out on a game of this price and renown without at fist looking into it...well....that kind of impulsiveness and/or exuberance speaks for itself really.
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I am not bothered by the overall quality except for the tower (like some other people have said) maybe somebody can laser cut some wood towers with nice "burn in" graphics of the El Grande name on the sides... I'd buy it!
 
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Heath Stockburn
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stlm wrote:
heathandliz wrote:
Legomancer wrote:
El Grande is a great game and a classic, and I am glad for this reprint to finally give me a chance to have it on my shelf. However, I have to say, this edition is kind of a disappointing representation of a great game.

First, there are the card typos. Not a huge deal, but good grief. In a prestige release, this should be caught.

The meeples. Meeples instead of cubes is an aesthetic choice, and there will be people on either side of that divide. Personally, I prefer cubes, but I can live with meeples. The ones in my box, however, varied in thickness, some were malformed, and generally seemed like they came from Joe's Discount Meeple Closeout Shop.

The wheels. The plastic pins that hold the wheels together aren't that great, and if you take them apart (to put in the thin plastic "washers" I overlooked the first time) you're severely weakening them.

The tower. El Grande is the Castillo. But this Castillo is small and puny, made of thin cardboard. It works, but it just feels flimsy.

In short, this edition feels like every possible corner was cut in production. None of these things would be a big deal in isolation, but all of it together does a disservice to a classic game. El Grande has been out of print for a while, and the last printing also had card issues, so many people, including myself, were really looking forward to this opportunity. I have the game, and I'll play it, but there's still a bit of sad trombone about it.

Furthermore, I just don't care about the expansions, and I don't know anyone who does. They'll likely never get touched, as the game is just fine without them. So they're just taking up space, embiggening the box, and jacking up the price.

I had thought about trying to trade this edition to someone who has the original, someone who might want the expansions and meeples and such, before I'd really dug into it, but now I don't think I could do so in clear conscience without revealing these issues and thus pretty much tanking the interest.

Like I said, it's playable, and I'll be playing it, but I'm really disappointed in the quality here.



Most of this is rubbish....

The only mistakes in the box are the card typo's. These are so well known about that anyone looking into this game before purchasing, should easily be able to find out about the typos' and make a decision as to weather it will bother them greatly before purchasing.

If you buy this game with the knowledge of the typos beforehand...shut up grumbling and moaning its is really really weary.

Anyone splashing out on a game of this price and renown without at fist looking into it...well....that kind of impulsiveness and/or exuberance speaks for itself really.



Hahaha. Very good.
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Spieler Gott
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I have the German edition.

-Big advantage of the Big Box compared to the original version is that the victory point track has numbers printed on.
-The board has two sides. The back side includes the expansions.
-Every expansion has it's own distinct components. You don't have to use region cards as a replacement.
-The wheels are thicker than the original ones.
-Everything fits nicely in the box and all the expansions has it's place.
-THE RULES! The rules were overhauled. Many unclear parts have been made clear.

With the wooden castillo from my old version, the Big Box is the best version for me.
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It has meeples instead of cubes? Really? Pass.
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MWChapel wrote:
It has meeples instead of cubes? Really? Pass.


They are little mini ones. I'm curious why this would make you want to pass. They are about the same size as a 10mm cube overall.
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MWChapel wrote:
It has meeples instead of cubes? Really? Pass.


I like the meeples.
 
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Mark L
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I love meeples! (And I have the microbadge to prove it.)

More seriously, I understand not everyone likes them, but passing on a game you'd like just because it contains meeples seems perverse. And if you're like me you probably have loads of cubes in other games that you could just replace the meeples with anyway, if they actually bother you.

I think the issues with this version of the game are disappointing for a 20th anniversary edition, but at the same time they're really pretty minor. Not worth getting excited over.
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@Mark: Because of this sentence...

xipuloxx wrote:
I love meeples! (And I have the microbadge to prove it.)


... I looked on your microbadges. And I noticed this little microbadge "I log my plays with SPLU" and I was wondering what that is.

And I figured it out that's an absolutely amazing tool to log all my plays.
Wow, thank you for that. The designer has to spread the word. That's the tool I always wanted to have for logging all my games.
Everybody who is logging games should know and have it.
I have to show my excitement with saying it in German... Das ist der HAMMER!!! laughmeeple
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xipuloxx wrote:
I love meeples! (And I have the microbadge to prove it.)

More seriously, I understand not everyone likes them, but passing on a game you'd like just because it contains meeples seems perverse. And if you're like me you probably have loads of cubes in other games that you could just replace the meeples with anyway, if they actually bother you.

I think the issues with this version of the game are disappointing for a 20th anniversary edition, but at the same time they're really pretty minor. Not worth getting excited over.


Just like the "Lack of Minis Syndrome" but now its called "Lack of Cubes"!!
 
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Dave Lartigue
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I think the people who played and enjoyed the original version are more disappointed in the meeples. If you never played the old version, I'm sure you won't notice. But if you did, there's a chance that you'll feel that a real classic game is missing something. The meeples aren't a deal breaker, but they're like adding a bunch of CGI nonsense to the re-release of a classic movie.
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Chris Wilczewski
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Legomancer wrote:
I think the people who played and enjoyed the original version are more disappointed in the meeples. If you never played the old version, I'm sure you won't notice. But if you did, there's a chance that you'll feel that a real classic game is missing something. The meeples aren't a deal breaker, but they're like adding a bunch of CGI nonsense to the re-release of a classic movie.


I wonder if there was this much complaining when Agricola went from cubes to animeeples. It's a big box set and and cubes have been the norm for 20 years, but that doesn't make them better. Is change so scary to us?
 
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alenen wrote:
Legomancer wrote:
I think the people who played and enjoyed the original version are more disappointed in the meeples. If you never played the old version, I'm sure you won't notice. But if you did, there's a chance that you'll feel that a real classic game is missing something. The meeples aren't a deal breaker, but they're like adding a bunch of CGI nonsense to the re-release of a classic movie.


I wonder if there was this much complaining when Agricola went from cubes to animeeples. It's a big box set and and cubes have been the norm for 20 years, but that doesn't make them better. Is change so scary to us?


Well for one, Agricola wasn't one of the first games that dealt with little wooden cubes. Agricola didn't predate Meeples by half a decade. Agricola doesn't have providence, it isn't a seminal game like El Grande is. If you don't understand that, then you wouldn't understand the problem.

There is "good" change, and then there's reboot change. El Grande is more than just an awesome game. It's also a first, a classic.

Some people like the 2015 Camaro, on some people think it doesn't beat the 1969 Camaro. YMMV.

I don't like it.
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Chris Wilczewski
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If it's simply a matter of "I don't like it" then I can't argue with that, and I understand personal preference.

A lot of the posts complaining about meeples being worse than cubes come across as though there is something factual about the dislike. Some objective thing which makes meeples worse.

I agree that meeples are different, but that doesn't make them "worse" objectively.
 
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Dave Lartigue
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In this case, I was not expecting the meeples and they're disappointing to me. I think they take away from the look and feel of the game. They're probably not an issue with most people, but I know there are some folks, like me, who were thinking this was a reprint staying true to the original who would be put off by this change. Hence my post.
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alenen wrote:


A lot of the posts complaining about meeples being worse than cubes come across as though there is something factual about the dislike. Some objective thing which makes meeples worse.


Some of the arguments against meeples were that it would be harder to differentiate between the Gand the Caballeros. That might be a good point if they were both standing up.
But, I think (not sure if this is in the rules or people are just doing it), one category stands up (Grande?) and the other is laid horizontally (Caballeros?)

So as far as a functional/objective argument against meeples, it doesn't really seem to be an issue.
 
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JohnnyDollar wrote:
alenen wrote:


A lot of the posts complaining about meeples being worse than cubes come across as though there is something factual about the dislike. Some objective thing which makes meeples worse.


Some of the arguments against meeples were that it would be harder to differentiate between the Gand the Caballeros. That might be a good point if they were both standing up.
But, I think (not sure if this is in the rules or people are just doing it), one category stands up (Grande?) and the other is laid horizontally (Caballeros?)

So as far as a functional/objective argument against meeples, it doesn't really seem to be an issue.


I was worried about this too, but now that I've held it in my hand the Grande is quite a bit bigger than the Caballeros.. pretty easy to distinguish.
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