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Darklight: Memento Mori» Forums » General

Subject: A word, if you please... rss

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ian m
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Been perusing the backer comments on Kickstarter since day 1, and I must say, there are some real know-it-alls on there.

Constantly telling Mauro what he should be doing, how other campaigns have been (apparently!) doing things better, how there aren't enough stretch goals and/or add-ons, and on and on...

Look, if you don't like the look of the game, then don't back it. If you think you can run a better campaign, then step up and offer to do it with him.

To Mr. Mauro & Dario Pane,

Thank you for making this game available. I have been waiting for this since I saw you talk about it here on a Warhammer Quest forum months ago. Thank you. The game, so far, seems amazing, a modern update (and future classic!) to a great old formula.

The game looks incredible, with lots of monster variety and a ton of beautiful miniatures. Anything else beyond this is icing on the cake.

Thanks for all your hard work.


Feel free to chime in if you feel the same.
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Patrick Heron
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Hear Hear

I've no problem with suggestions but there's a real whiff of entitlement in kickstarter that puts me off.
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Paul DeStefano
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Do they read this forum?
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Greece
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True. Suggestions should be welcomed, but constant comparisons with other projects is really annoying.. But anyway, who cares? Im sure the creators are doing the best they can & that's all that matters! Lets hope this game rocks and gets all it deserves!!! meeple
And after all, KS is just the beginning. If the game does well later in stores, we might as well get to see the locked stretch goals available, in the form of an expansion someday!
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mauro pane
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I take everybody's opinion at heart I think is good to express fears and worries from our backers, but let's all together keep positive and help each others keep a fun and friendly atmosphere
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John Middleton
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Same thing happens with every Kickstarter.


The thing I'm curious about is what happened with the old full plastic arch doors with the slot for inserts....seemed so cool
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Gab Mor
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DegenerateElite wrote:
Same thing happens with every Kickstarter.


The thing I'm curious about is what happened with the old full plastic arch doors with the slot for inserts....seemed so cool


You can find an answer in this other thread

https://boardgamegeek.com/thread/1537525/game-tiles-shapes-a...
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Greece
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Minis used to get stuck in.. also another factor could be a budget thing i suppose.. :/
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Patrick Heron
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MauroP wrote:
I take everybody's opinion at heart I think is good to express fears and worries from our backers, but let's all together keep positive and help each others keep a fun and friendly atmosphere


Can't argue with the man himself!

If he's ok, I'm ok!
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ian m
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Wow. This wasn't meant as an "STFU take it or leave it" thread. It escalated quickly.

First, from what I have observed, I don't see much praise and thanks to the brothers Pane for all the work they have already done. This thread was made to address that percieved lack, and for others to express themselves also.

Second, if you are backing a project and it isn't quite what you would like, you have three options. Keep backing it and trust the creator/s have done their homework(playtesting), try and get the creator/s to change it to what you think it should be, or stop backing it. It seems that many people have decided to take choice two on the forums there. Not even, "Why did you do it this way instead of this?" Just "You should do it this way."

Maybe I am over thinking it. It is my first Kickstarter...modest

And did anybody make it to the second part of my original post?

zeromaker wrote:

To Mr. Mauro & Dario Pane,

Thank you for making this game available. I have been waiting for this since I saw you talk about it here on a Warhammer Quest forum months ago. Thank you. The game, so far, seems amazing, a modern update (and future classic!) to a great old formula.

The game looks incredible, with lots of monster variety and a ton of beautiful miniatures. Anything else beyond this is icing on the cake.

Thanks for all your hard work.

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Patrick Heron
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zeromaker wrote:
Wow. This wasn't meant as an "STFU take it or leave it" thread. It escalated quickly.

First, from what I have observed, I don't see much praise and thanks to the brothers Pane for all the work they have already done. This thread was made to address that percieved lack, and for others to express themselves also.

Second, if you are backing a project and it isn't quite what you would like, you have three options. Keep backing it and trust the creator/s have done their homework(playtesting), try and get the creator/s to change it to what you think it should be, or stop backing it. It seems that many people have decided to take choice two on the forums there. Not even, "Why did you do it this way instead of this?" Just "You should do it this way."

Maybe I am over thinking it. It is my first Kickstarter...modest

And did anybody make it to the second part of my original post?

zeromaker wrote:

To Mr. Mauro & Dario Pane,

Thank you for making this game available. I have been waiting for this since I saw you talk about it here on a Warhammer Quest forum months ago. Thank you. The game, so far, seems amazing, a modern update (and future classic!) to a great old formula.

The game looks incredible, with lots of monster variety and a ton of beautiful miniatures. Anything else beyond this is icing on the cake.

Thanks for all your hard work.



Welcome to the internet lol

That's actually how I read your post which is why I commented on KS entitlement in general rather than this specific one.


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Jonah Rees
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Nah, Kickstarter has loads of people with a sense of entitlement. You never got it when you just had to buy a game as it would come complete with the developer's vision. Now with KS you get some say on the development as you can suggest ideas but there's too many people who think this entitles them to have all their ideas listened too (which are of course the best whilst everybody else's are stupid!). At least this project is what KS was actually designed for rather than CMON churning out another money maker.
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Martin Gallo
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The entitled are everywhere these days. It is a free country, so I guess they are entitled. Oh, wait...whistle
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Mark Furmage
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Ian, I think you've missed the point. The entire reason for kickstarter was to help projects come to life which might not otherwise see the light of day and to put the people backing them in touch with their creator.

DIG have chosen to follow a funding methodology which is tried and true because of this - stretch goals for miniatures etc etc etc. Unfortunately this means it's in both the backers' interest AND the developers' interest for the funds to reach astronomic levels - understandably then, if backers see a campaign stall (or as this one has done, go backwards from time to time), they'll want to offer feedback.

DIG is like Michelangelo, and you're Pope Julius II commissioning the work. You can't control the vision, but you can still discuss with the Maestro what you think should be on there, and if he starts painting genitals everywhere you can be legitimately concerned and, eventually, refuse to pay.

ANALOGY WIN!
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Allan
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The thing is, with Darklight the base box has as many miniatures in it as some of the recently funded kickstarters had AFTER stretch goals (Sword & Sorcery for instance). Just the base box alone is incredible value, even at the Accursed price point. Maybe DIG should have cut back the miniatures that were in the basic box and instead included them as stretch goals early on to make it appear as if the stretch goals held more value. They would have been good to intersperse through other goals as they wouldn't have included the cost of tooling molds.

While taking stuff out the box to include as stretch goals is slightly shady, I don't think anyone would have balked at the base box containing 'only' 50 or so miniatures. As it is people see that only one or two goals are unlocked and immediately think "oh this isn't going anywhere it's probably not worth the money", completely overlooking the fact that the core box has around 77 miniatures in it already.
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mauro pane
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zethnar wrote:
The thing is, with Darklight the base box has as many miniatures in it as some of the recently funded kickstarters had AFTER stretch goals (Sword & Sorcery for instance). Just the base box alone is incredible value, even at the Accursed price point. Maybe DIG should have cut back the miniatures that were in the basic box and instead included them as stretch goals early on to make it appear as if the stretch goals held more value. They would have been good to intersperse through other goals as they wouldn't have included the cost of tooling molds.

While taking stuff out the box to include as stretch goals is slightly shady, I don't think anyone would have balked at the base box containing 'only' 50 or so miniatures. As it is people see that only one or two goals are unlocked and immediately think "oh this isn't going anywhere it's probably not worth the money", completely overlooking the fact that the core box has around 77 miniatures in it already.


Marketing wise it would have made more sense for sure, but if there is one thing I told myself from the start is that I wasn't in this for the money, I wanted to create something and stay true to its design and not compromise it so I can make more cash in the end.
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Allan
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And I respect that decision, I wish more kickstarter projects would follow your example.

The point I was really trying to make was that a lot of people seem to be overlooking the fact that the game already comes with a LOT of content and are instead focusing only on the stretch goals.
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Jochen Wiesner
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Well, personally, I tend to reward honesty, though I have yet to back up from a KS project because I feel the stretch goals arent't stretch goals in truth, but basic content that has been held back.

The number of minis is also secondary for me as long as the existing minis allow for enough replayability. Miniature fans will have another point of view in this, but for them even the base box alone should hold more than enough bang for the buck.

The main questions the KS has to answer for me are
a) does the gameplay look promising enough
b) does the game deliver enough playing hours for the money compared to other games

For me, even the base box answers these questions with yes, so for me this project's stretch goals are in fact giveaways.

I'd really love to see some valuable addons soon though.
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Jonah Rees
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zethnar wrote:
The thing is, with Darklight the base box has as many miniatures in it as some of the recently funded kickstarters had AFTER stretch goals (Sword & Sorcery for instance). Just the base box alone is incredible value, even at the Accursed price point. Maybe DIG should have cut back the miniatures that were in the basic box and instead included them as stretch goals early on to make it appear as if the stretch goals held more value. They would have been good to intersperse through other goals as they wouldn't have included the cost of tooling molds.

While taking stuff out the box to include as stretch goals is slightly shady, I don't think anyone would have balked at the base box containing 'only' 50 or so miniatures. As it is people see that only one or two goals are unlocked and immediately think "oh this isn't going anywhere it's probably not worth the money", completely overlooking the fact that the core box has around 77 miniatures in it already.


People see through the fake stretch goals and annoys them no end. I much prefer this way of running the campaign. Sure it may not be as 'sexy' and it's likely not getting backers because it's not an established company but it's honest and up-front and the developers are asking what we'd like/prefer as stretch goals in a lot of instances.
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Allan
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I should have phrased that differently. It was more intended as a "Could DIG have gone this route? Sure, there's enough minis in the box now that taking some out probably wouldn't have affected the game much, or people's perception of it upon first viewing", which was in response to the poster above me, although I don't recall what he'd said now and I can't see it from this screen.

However, part of me does wonder if we really need 6 to 12 of each of the smaller enemies in the game, or if a lesser number would have sufficed. Having so many is a nice bonus, and would have made a nice stretch goal, but unless we're likely to be using all six Skorn Savages at once on a regular basis maybe we could have managed with just 4 or 3 instead.

The thing is, it's only 'putting the contents back in the box' if that content actually NEEDS to be in there for the game to work properly. Take a look at Sword and Sorcery for instance, they included very few enemy types in the core box, but added a whole bunch of extras in what is obviously a planned expansion. However none of that extra content is necessary to play the core game and won't be in the core box at retail.

Now, I don't mind that Darklight comes with everything I need to play the game for a good long time, that's fantastic. But the real point of my post, which a lot of people seem to be missing, is that the content of the core box is being completely discounted by a lot of people. There is a lot of focus on hitting stretch goals and a lot of wringing of hands over the fact that we've only unlocked two so far.

The campaign isn't a failure, we're already getting more content in the core box than was even unlocked for a 'stretchgoals added' pledge for another recent dungeon crawl game. Even if we never hit another stretchgoal the campaign is a success and I'm sure everyone will get plenty of years of play out of it (assuming they like it when they finally receive it).
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mauro pane
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zethnar wrote:
I should have phrased that differently. It was more intended as a "Could DIG have gone this route? Sure, there's enough minis in the box now that taking some out probably wouldn't have affected the game much, or people's perception of it upon first viewing", which was in response to the poster above me, although I don't recall what he'd said now and I can't see it from this screen.

However, part of me does wonder if we really need 6 to 12 of each of the smaller enemies in the game, or if a lesser number would have sufficed. Having so many is a nice bonus, and would have made a nice stretch goal, but unless we're likely to be using all six Skorn Savages at once on a regular basis maybe we could have managed with just 4 or 3 instead.

The thing is, it's only 'putting the contents back in the box' if that content actually NEEDS to be in there for the game to work properly. Take a look at Sword and Sorcery for instance, they included very few enemy types in the core box, but added a whole bunch of extras in what is obviously a planned expansion. However none of that extra content is necessary to play the core game and won't be in the core box at retail.

Now, I don't mind that Darklight comes with everything I need to play the game for a good long time, that's fantastic. But the real point of my post, which a lot of people seem to be missing, is that the content of the core box is being completely discounted by a lot of people. There is a lot of focus on hitting stretch goals and a lot of wringing of hands over the fact that we've only unlocked two so far.

The campaign isn't a failure, we're already getting more content in the core box than was even unlocked for a 'stretchgoals added' pledge for another recent dungeon crawl game. Even if we never hit another stretchgoal the campaign is a success and I'm sure everyone will get plenty of years of play out of it (assuming they like it when they finally receive it).


If you are playing in 4 and you meet a group made only of Skorn Savages, you have 1 chance in 3 to meet all 6 of them. This is due to balancing.

12 Cralwers and Seekers are also needed because they are deadly in numbers even if easy to kill, it's all part of the core gameplay
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