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Subject: Just a gateway/family game? rss

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Thomas
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Or can people who enjoy heavier games still enjoy this? What about with the expansions, do they add any layers or depth?
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Rick Teverbaugh
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Yes and yes. I think gamers enjoy the "your own mistakes can kill you" quality of the game more than family and casual gamers might. All the expansions add variety and additional challenge to the game.
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Carthoris Pyramidos
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I wouldn't call it heavy, but I like it a lot as a game for adults. The expansions add more variety than depth.

As far as overall weight goes, I think it's very comparable to Dominion, but I greatly prefer Kingdom Builder.
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Thomas
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Carthoris wrote:
I wouldn't call it heavy, but I like it a lot as a game for adults. The expansions add more variety than depth.

As far as overall weight goes, I think it's very comparable to Dominion, but I greatly prefer Kingdom Builder.


We're nto fans of deckbuilders. Someone told me it's basically draw a card and hope you get the terrain you want. What other decisions are there? What do the expansions add/ Reason I ask is the new big box on kickstarter.
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that Matt
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LunarSoundDesign wrote:
Someone told me it's basically draw a card and hope you get the terrain you want. What other decisions are there?


Kingdom Builder after 30 plays
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Jim Temple
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LunarSoundDesign wrote:
We're nto fans of deckbuilders. Someone told me it's basically draw a card and hope you get the terrain you want. What other decisions are there? What do the expansions add/ Reason I ask is the new big box on kickstarter.


I'd actually argue it's the exact opposite. Draw a card, see what the terrain is, and see how you can maximize your options using that card/terrain. One of the key things about the game is that your moves must follow specific rules, and that can feel limiting if you just "hope you get the terrain you want". Instead, you need to plan to fill up terrain areas quickly by placing in small areas. Since you can't legally place in that terrain adjacently anymore, this opens up your options because you can jump to a completely different part of the 4 boards. You're also trying to figure out how to best optimize your moves using the special tiles you pick up during the game.

The appeal for me is kind of puzzle-like, but with blocking. How do I place these houses that will give me more flexibility in the future, will help me get the special move tiles, and work towards the scoring objectives (or prevent someone else's play toward these goals)?

Good stuff!
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Ray R.
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Draw a Canyon card. Play in the Canyon. Stuck in this stupid Canyon until you fill it up.

OR

Draw a Canyon card. Use a power to hop a settlement over the water into a grassland. Use another power to build an additional settlement in the grassland that's in a straight line to a farm house. Use another power to slide that settlement across the board until it bumps into the farm house. Earn another power (for next turn) and block your opponent from expanding through that narrow corridor. Oh, right. Almost forgot to play the settlements from the card.

The cards just present a puzzle to solve. They're not nearly as limiting as people would have you believe.

Kingdom Builder has something in common with Carcassonne (another "draw an XX and hope you get what you want" game that is so much more than that) - you can play nice, or you can earn yourself a night on the couch. Either way, it's fun. It's one of our favorites.
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Thomas
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Cool, how does it play with only two though?
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that Matt
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LunarSoundDesign wrote:
Cool, how does it play with only two though?

Excellently.
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Mr. D
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Extremely well.
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Dave Eisen
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LunarSoundDesign wrote:
Or can people who enjoy heavier games still enjoy this? What about with the expansions, do they add any layers or depth?


It's a well-designed game for what it is, but what it is is a lighter game. I see no reason to own it but could probably be talked into playing a game for social reasons.

I have never played any of the expansions so cannot comment on them.
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Rick Teverbaugh
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LunarSoundDesign wrote:
Carthoris wrote:
I wouldn't call it heavy, but I like it a lot as a game for adults. The expansions add more variety than depth.

As far as overall weight goes, I think it's very comparable to Dominion, but I greatly prefer Kingdom Builder.


We're nto fans of deckbuilders. Someone told me it's basically draw a card and hope you get the terrain you want. What other decisions are there? What do the expansions add/ Reason I ask is the new big box on kickstarter.


You have been lied to. What decisions you have to make are more accurately controlled by your previous moves than the card draw. Expansions provide more choices in how the game will test you and increase replayability.
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Jimmy Okolica
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dkeisen wrote:
LunarSoundDesign wrote:
Or can people who enjoy heavier games still enjoy this? What about with the expansions, do they add any layers or depth?


It's a well-designed game for what it is, but what it is is a lighter game. I see no reason to own it but could probably be talked into playing a game for social reasons.

I have never played any of the expansions so cannot comment on them.


Why would you say it's a lighter game? It's certainly a shorter game, but for weight, I'd compare it to Terra Mystica. In both games, all (or most) of the meaningful decisions are made by your third or fourth action. Fortunately, in Kingdom Builder, at that point you're only 30ish minutes away from being done*. I'd definitely call Kingdom Builder a front-loaded game, but I wouldn't necessarily call it light.

It is a puzzle game. Before the game starts, you look at the board, you look at the goals, you look at the special powers and you look at your first card and figure out a strategy for the game. 30 minutes later you see how well you did. If you like those sorts of games, you'll like it. If not, you won't.


*I have had one game of Kingdom Builder go on for well over an hour. I never played it with them again.
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Thomas
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I appreciate the feedback, downloaded the app to try it out. Do the expansions just add variety by changing the terrain and scoring conditions ore are there extra layers of depth?
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Jimmy Okolica
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LunarSoundDesign wrote:
I appreciate the feedback, downloaded the app to try it out. Do the expansions just add variety by changing the terrain and scoring conditions ore are there extra layers of depth?


Terrain never changes. They do add more maps, so more combinations of terrain. They also add more special powers and scoring conditions. They do add a few more wrinkles (in-game scoring vs. end-game scoring, a couple of extra pieces, one-time use special powers, etc.). I'd say they're nice to have for variety, but if you don't find the basic game interesting or challenging, the expansions won't change your mind.
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Rick Teverbaugh
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Butterfly0038 wrote:
LunarSoundDesign wrote:
I appreciate the feedback, downloaded the app to try it out. Do the expansions just add variety by changing the terrain and scoring conditions ore are there extra layers of depth?


Terrain never changes. They do add more maps, so more combinations of terrain. They also add more special powers and scoring conditions. They do add a few more wrinkles (in-game scoring vs. end-game scoring, a couple of extra pieces, one-time use special powers, etc.). I'd say they're nice to have for variety, but if you don't find the basic game interesting or challenging, the expansions won't change your mind.


Terrain has never changed so far. That is about to change.
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Thomas
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rickert wrote:
Butterfly0038 wrote:
LunarSoundDesign wrote:
I appreciate the feedback, downloaded the app to try it out. Do the expansions just add variety by changing the terrain and scoring conditions ore are there extra layers of depth?


Terrain never changes. They do add more maps, so more combinations of terrain. They also add more special powers and scoring conditions. They do add a few more wrinkles (in-game scoring vs. end-game scoring, a couple of extra pieces, one-time use special powers, etc.). I'd say they're nice to have for variety, but if you don't find the basic game interesting or challenging, the expansions won't change your mind.


Terrain has never changed so far. That is about to change.


I meant new maps or whatever. So do any of the expansions add depth or complexity or just subtle variety?
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Matt E
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LunarSoundDesign wrote:
I meant new maps or whatever. So do any of the expansions add depth or complexity or just subtle variety?

I'm sorry dude, but no matter how many times you ask, no the expansions don't add much in the way of depth. But the variety they add is not subtle. Each new map comes with new abilities that are significantly different than the ones in the base game, and the new scoring cards in the expansions are also very new-feeling.
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Matt E
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Maybe it would help if you explained what you meant by "depth".

In Kingdom Builder, the depth comes from the ways that the abilities and scoring conditions all interact with each other. Because you only use 4 out of the 8 maps each game, and 3 of the 10 scoring criteria, each game plays pretty differently (but not so differently that nothing you learn in one game carries over to the next). There is enough depth that the breadth of that depth can keep you entertained for many, many plays.

Expansions for Kingdom Builder don't pile on more complexity on top of what's there. They offer more variety; more breadth for that depth. With the first two expansions, you're now playing with 4 out of 16 boards and 3-7 of 19 scoring criteria. The expansions have more complex abilities, which can create additional "depth".
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Thomas
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Depth = layers = more to think about, tougher decisions etc.
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Jimmy Okolica
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LunarSoundDesign wrote:
Depth = layers = more to think about, tougher decisions etc.


My personal opinion is no, or if yes, only slightly. How much depth does Traders & Builders or Inns & Cathedrals add to Carc? I'd say a little less than that, but close to the same.
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Thomas
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Butterfly0038 wrote:
LunarSoundDesign wrote:
Depth = layers = more to think about, tougher decisions etc.


My personal opinion is no, or if yes, only slightly. How much depth does Traders & Builders or Inns & Cathedrals add to Carc? I'd say a little less than that, but close to the same.


Never played carc sorry. Hoping the app gives me a good idea.
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Tylor Lilley
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Just two add my two cents to some of the questions that have been posted in this thread - I think this game is definately strategic and has more than enough depth to keep me and my partner pleased. This is one of our favorite games to play two player against each other, because it feels fresh enough and DIFFERENT enough each ttim, thanks to the modular set up and reward cards. And it feels just punishing/rewarding enough for each of your decisions that it to feel like a satisfying end when you win or lose. You can almost always track your loss back to one or two mistakes you made earlier on, and try to learn from them for future plays, which I like.

There is SOME randomness to the card draws, but there is waaay less riding on that card draw than some people make it out to be. Between careful and strategic placement of your pieces and the bonus actions you can collect, that randomness can almost always be tamed in your favor and mitigated. That's part of the core strategy to the game.

We do own all the expansions and we've greatly appreciated the variety they provide. In my opinion they do add more depth than the very simple (but very robust and fun) base game. Not much more, but enough.

The extra rules and slightly more complicated abilities from the expansions DO add up. We usually don't play more than one game in a row that uses all of the expansions at once, because of this. It gets to be a lot to track and try to optimize for when everything is all used at once. Don't get me wrong, it's challenging and it's fun, but it is definately a bit more of a brain burner than the game usually is, so we rarely do that multiple times in a row. So if you are looking to increase the depth, using all the expansions at once is a valid way to do so, I think.

Sorry this response was so long, but I wanted to fully address the few questions that were asked. Hopefully my two cents are helpful to you!
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Russ Williams
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If by "heavy" you're talking about rules complexity, then Kingdom Builder is not "heavy". Its rules are very short and simple.

If by "heavy" you're talking about interesting strategic & tactical decisions, than many of us find KB to have them.

FWIW: I enjoy strategically deep games like Go & Shogi, and I also enjoy some rules-heavy wargames with many dozens of pages of complicated rules, and I also enjoy KB. So certainly it is possible to enjoy either type of "heavy" game and also enjoy KB.

But if you only/exclusively enjoy games like Go/Shogi, or complicated long rulebook games, then you might not enjoy KB.
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Fernando Robert Yu
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Yes it's a family game, but why the word "just"? I think the game does not pretend otherwise...
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