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Epic Card Game» Forums » General

Subject: Big fan so far...question for constructed players about "Esper Control" rss

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Ken B.
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So far I really like this game way more than I figured I would. I'm a Magic the Gathering player too and I thought the derivative/copied nature of the gameplay would bug me. Besides smirking when referring to "Blitz" and "Righteous" though, I really dig how the game plays and flows. The multiple ways to play and draft are also big plus factors for me.

At work, we game once a week at lunch breaks. We have more than 1 current or former Magic player in this group, so I'm going to introduce this to them this week with some "deal out 30 randoms and learn the game" style play.


Ok, enough rambling, and on to the crux of my question.


Looking at the card pool and deck construction for the Constructed format, from my experience as a Magic player...and given the new win condition of decking out...it seems a deck chock full of card draw, wraths, and spot removal would be nigh unbeatable. In Magic, decking out is a loss so Esper Control decks need a "finisher" (Dragonlord Ojutai, other big beater backed with Counterspell protection)...but this game provides the "finisher" in the form of just decking yourself out for the win.

I haven't yet decided if I want to buy 3 more decks as a constructed pool because honestly no one locally is playing this yet. So my ability to even test this theory seems very limited. From those of you who have constructed experience, what is the flaw in my analysis?

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Ossian Grr aka "Josh"
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In my limited experience, it is Very Hard to run yourself out of cards, especially because the Banish mechanic puts cards back onto the bottom of your deck.
And due to the power level of every single card, if you streamline your deck toward fast "draw" effects to deck yourself, you're still likely to be dead before your deck is empty.

Just doesn't seem reliable.
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Ken B.
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jozxyqk wrote:
In my limited experience, it is Very Hard to run yourself out of cards, especially because the Banish mechanic puts cards back onto the bottom of your deck.
And due to the power level of every single card, if you streamline your deck toward fast "draw" effects to deck yourself, you're still likely to be dead before your deck is empty.

Just doesn't seem reliable.



Well sure, that's why the heavy emphasis on board control and removal. You're drawing cards to constantly wrath and hit spot removal.

Looking over the pool so far though, I think card counts is what will hold it up. I'm not sure there are enough of these two type effects to hit 60 cards. I'd have to parse them out and look at them.

Again though a big problem is having no one to test this against. I wish the Forge (Slightly Magic) guys did an Epic client as well, lol.
 
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Brian Rayburn
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There is an Epic module for Tabletop Simulator. I have not tried it yet, as TTS runs so slowly on my machine.
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Ken B.
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scarecrowking wrote:
There is an Epic module for Tabletop Simulator. I have not tried it yet, as TTS runs so slowly on my machine.


Awesome, thanks! I'll look into that.
 
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Derek Arnold
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If the meta game shifts this way people will play amnesia.
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Ken B.
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EpicAgenda wrote:
If the meta game shifts this way people will play amnesia.



Good point...a one-card hoser. But if you're in control, that just lengthens the game clock. I guess you'd be looking at time limit draws (a familiar foe to Esper players.)

Understand that this isn't a criticism. Many, many dueling card games get the "play creatures, battle, play some spells to make them bigger" right. Most of them though don't even feature a control archetype, of if they do it's extremely weak. Ashes: Rise of the Phoenixborn nails the control archetype very well, for example. But it's a rare thing.
 
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Nándor Gáspár
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This kind of deck is also vulnerable against burn effects.
(Lighting Storm can kill you before you deck out)

There is no counterspell in this game. Even if you wipe the board, the damage from e.g. Strafing Dragon will happen before you could make your answer.
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Silver Bowen
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franklincobb wrote:
At work, we game once a week at lunch breaks. We have more than 1 current or former Magic player in this group, so I'm going to introduce this to them this week with some "deal out 30 randoms and learn the game" style play.


Do not do this. Play with all 30 cards of one color, then move into draft or two color combos or some such. 30 random cards is the worst possible playing experience (yes, even though the rules suggest it).

Regularly decking yourself in 60 card constructed is a difficult task, especially given the current small card pool. It is way easier in 30 card mono play and draft. Some of the best control cards are also creatures/damage (the blue discard guy, blue creature bouncer guy, green burn (yes, as a former MtGer it is weird to type that), black zombies, and so on).
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silverbowen wrote:
franklincobb wrote:
At work, we game once a week at lunch breaks. We have more than 1 current or former Magic player in this group, so I'm going to introduce this to them this week with some "deal out 30 randoms and learn the game" style play.


Do not do this. Play with all 30 cards of one color, then move into draft or two color combos or some such. 30 random cards is the worst possible playing experience (yes, even though the rules suggest it).

Regularly decking yourself in 60 card constructed is a difficult task, especially given the current small card pool. It is way easier in 30 card mono play and draft. Some of the best control cards are also creatures/damage (the blue discard guy, blue creature bouncer guy, green burn (yes, as a former MtGer it is weird to type that), black zombies, and so on).

Actually I flippin' love random 30. It's a really interesting, on-your-toes format - at the moment it's my absolute favourite!
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Ken B.
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silverbowen wrote:
green burn (yes, as a former MtGer it is weird to type that)



We found that funny, too. I know that Mark Rosewater has stated in the past that of all the colors, Green and White are so similar that they almost don't deserve to be separate colors, and their two slices of the color pie are the most difficult to divide between. But here they combined Red and Green into just Green. I guess that ties into the 'savage' nature of both colors, and seems to work just fine.
 
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Ken B.
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deeth82 wrote:
greylag wrote:

Actually I flippin' love random 30. It's a really interesting, on-your-toes format - at the moment it's my absolute favourite!


I would enjoy random 30...my buddy and I, ironically enough, started out with Full Constructed, but one day I'll have to try it. Yes, for better balance, dealing out 30 cards to each player per faction would be best, but as the skill levels of the players involved/their understanding of the rules grow, I think Random 30 would be a gas. So what if it seems like you got the worst combination of cards possible? The game would be over so quickly you could shuffle and go again!



The random 30 will just be to get everyone introduced into the game. After that, we'll draft. Probably do a draft one session and play a few games, let those decks carry over into another lunch session, then re-draft and try Emperor, Hyrda, or something similar.

It's funny, years ago we adopted Jyhad/Vampire's Predator/Prey rules into our big multiplayer games of Magic--attack left, if your Prey is ever removed the game, you gained 6 life. It's great to see that as an official rules variant for Epic right there in the rulebook. We never thought of the limited area of effect concept back then, that's a nice idea. Otherwise if not, it would be Wrath Fest '16 in each and every game.
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Kevin Jonas

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silverbowen wrote:
franklincobb wrote:
At work, we game once a week at lunch breaks. We have more than 1 current or former Magic player in this group, so I'm going to introduce this to them this week with some "deal out 30 randoms and learn the game" style play.


Do not do this. Play with all 30 cards of one color, then move into draft or two color combos or some such. 30 random cards is the worst possible playing experience (yes, even though the rules suggest it).

Regularly decking yourself in 60 card constructed is a difficult task, especially given the current small card pool. It is way easier in 30 card mono play and draft. Some of the best control cards are also creatures/damage (the blue discard guy, blue creature bouncer guy, green burn (yes, as a former MtGer it is weird to type that), black zombies, and so on).

My experience is random seems to provide the closest matches. Mono color is usually dominant. The last green vs blue I played I won with green at 30-0. Though on a past game blue won 12-0. So they may be balanced in colors in terms of how often each color will win over the other but in terms of providing close game play, not at all. If that 30-0 game was an introduction game I would have drove that person away from the game.
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Andrew Kapish
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I think the best way to handle sealed Random-30 is to deal 1s and 0s separately to each player.
Either 8 free / 22 gold (Demigod ratio) or 10 free / 20 gold. (similar to constructed ratio)
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Ken B.
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andrewkapish wrote:
I think the best way to handle sealed Random-30 is to deal 1s and 0s separately to each player.
Either 8 free / 22 gold (Demigod ratio) or 10 free / 20 gold. (similar to constructed ratio)



The random method worked fine for teaching. We've moved on to drafting. Everyone has a draft deck and we'll use those for a few weeks before tossing them all back in and drafting again.

This was a big hit for a group of guys at work who were former Magic players and missed the fun of playing but not the expense of same.
 
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Andrea Magini
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andrewkapish wrote:
I think the best way to handle sealed Random-30 is to deal 1s and 0s separately to each player.
Either 8 free / 22 gold (Demigod ratio) or 10 free / 20 gold. (similar to constructed ratio)


Agree.
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Andrew S
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franklincobb wrote:
... then re-draft and try Emperor, Hyrda, or something similar.


What's Emperor?
 
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Ken B.
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zespri wrote:
franklincobb wrote:
... then re-draft and try Emperor, Hyrda, or something similar.


What's Emperor?



Here's a good link. Because Epic's play is such a close analogue for Magic, it's not difficult to port this format over to Epic.


http://mtgsalvation.gamepedia.com/Emperor

 
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