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Hurtgen: Hell's Forest» Forums » General

Subject: NOT Disappointed in the game system rss

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Tom Stearns
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Good Lord, can't believe I missed that whole thread. Kind of glad I did actually.

So here is another perspective.

The games of the GOSS system work, are playable and the system itself is not the issue. I have played 2 of the 3 and gained much enjoyment from them and continue to do so. I feel I have more than got my money's worth and will continue to do so. I do not think the games or the system are flawed. The maps are awesome, the counters attractive and functional. Joe supports his designs by responding to questions.

There is however a problem. The problem is the rule book. Not just one but all of them. The lack of action on Joe's part and or DG's part to put out a revised updated rule book written in a format that is functional to the user is inexcusable in this day and age. Not to mention a FAQ.

The criticism aimed at the games themselves is misdirected in my opinion. Are they easy to play or initially to get into? No. How many monster games with this much detail are? I think some of the harsh criticism comes from unrealistic expectations. Going back to my days of learning and playing The Longest Day and Highway to the Reich (SPI) I always know that a monster game is going to have an inordinate amount of errata and a steeper than normal learning curve. I accept that going in so my expectations are tempered. Joe and DG have not done themselves any favors by not listening to their customers and supporters who are telling them what they need to do for these games. I must say though that I lack much empathy for someone who invests $100/$200 on games and doesn't research them first.

As for being competitive playable out of the box? Some are but few monster games are competitive because they usually are not balanced. In my opinion monster games are played more for the experience than the competition and I play with like minded individuals. If people want to be cut throat when playing something like these games then I'll look for a different opponent.

These are not easy games and are not for the faint hearted. They are also not for people who expect things easily provided to them to be able to play. They require work, time and patience in addition to a commitment. Maybe that is why I like them because the pay off from the commitment is really rewarding. I may just be a different bird and see things differently, but most of my war game buddies share my point of view. So look before you leap is the best advice I can give someone considering purchasing or diving into the GOSS system. I have no regrets and I am definitely NOT disappointed in the games of GOSS.
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Nolan Hudgens
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Tom- you're right. There are only a couple of things I could add to what you say.

(1) Some players want to have an opportunity to get a reprint of some old favorite, usually from SPI. I emphathize with these players, since there was a time when I missed a number of those famous old monsters. (long story, then girlfriend who hates war, I don't blame her one bit.) These players have whined aloud because the system is decidedly NOT the original one. Instead it's much more complex.

(2) One reason that there still is no "living rulebook" for these games is that Joe has issued a series of rulings on Consimworld to clarify various points. These in turn were compiled into a sort of quasi- official errata listing by Dan Davis. (He left off when Atlantic Wall came out due to the changed new version of GOSS.) His compendium is the best interpretative guide to the 2012 rules (including WaR and Hurtgen Exclusive rules), even if it isn't cast as Living Rules.

(3) I think Joe views the 2015 series rules that came with AWall as the most evolved rules version, and hence the "real" living rulebook. (There could still be some adaptation for the older games, which he promises to deliver. However there's a lot on his plate.)

Thanks again for raising this point. GOSS is the ride of your life. Strap it all on, you'll need it.arrrh
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Jim F
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Who knew trench warfare could be such fun?
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How long would it take to teach someone this game bearing in mind what you have highlighted in your post, Tom?

 
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Tom Stearns
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Ashiefan wrote:

How long would it take to teach someone this game bearing in mind what you have highlighted in your post, Tom?



Lol!!!

That my friend is a loaded question. I started in on WaRII in 2010 and I'm still learning it. So that's going on 6 years....lol.

Seriously though it is not going to be one of those things where you learn it and your done learning and just playing. There is soooo much detail that I at least, cannot retain it all. I've made my own player aids and rule consolidations and I still constantly refer back to the rule book. With WaR and AW the exclusive rules have tons of rule exceptions.

You really just have to start reading, setting up, pushing counters and get playing. You will learn as you go. Start and stop, then start over. It is a learning PROCESS for sure.

My friend Daniel Quartaroli recently bought WaR and AW. He has read the GOSS rule book and is now reading the exclusive rules. Soon we will be setting up to play. Even the people who play a bunch and could claim expertise, make mistakes and miss things. So don't constrain yourself with a time frame to have it learned. Just get started and enjoy the process.
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Jim F
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I'm completely see-through. I have Hurtgen: Hell's Forest. Time to have a tinker with it
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Joel Tamburo
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The game system has a lot of potential. I just wish Joe had taken it to a different publisher who would have provided the needed developer support so we could have a proper electronic rulebook that is fully updated and properly formatted for usability.
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steve john
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Edited - please see later comments.

Thank you.
 
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steve john
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Going back to my days of learning and playing The Longest Day and Highway to the Reich (SPI) I always know that a monster game is going to have an inordinate amount of errata and a steeper than normal learning curve. I accept that going in so my expectations are tempered.

Edited - please see later comments.

Thank you.
 
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Tom Stearns
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Yes I equate competitive game play to cut throat, because if I'm playing a competitive game I'm out to win it.

Playing non-competitive I'm playing for the experience and winning is secondary.

Did you ever play The Longest Day? Do you remember the pages and pages of errata. Every issue of The General seemed to have more. You know what? We didn't care. We buckled down, learned the game and had tons of fun playing it for years.

We obviously have different ways of playing these games and what is acceptable and what is not. You have made it abundantly clear what you think. All the complaining in the world isn't going to change what the situation is. You aren't the first to complain and won't be the last I'm sure. I think Joe genuinely cares about his games and tries to be responsive. I'm pretty sure Decision Games doesn't give a hoot.

Suggest you try and get a refund (good luck with that) or sell them second hand because I doubt you will ever be happy with these games.
 
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Tom Stearns
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I have played GB. The original. At Origins. With Dean.

I still have it and a couple of other OCS games. Very well written rules.

OCS is a little too fiddly with supply and air for my taste. Also not a big east front guy. I have Beyond the Rhine but haven't played it.
 
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Tom Stearns
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Interesting comparing your reaction to reading of the rules (I presume you read them beyond the table of contents) and the reaction of Daniel Quartaroli. Daniel first purchased WaRII. After reading the GOSS rules (not even sure he finished them first) he went and bought AWII. He was just gushing over what a tremendous system GOSS is. Sure he was critical of the writing, but was able to see beyond that to the gem that lies beneath.
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roger miller
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Some day I will give these games a try again. WaR 2004 version just about killed any interest. The rules were bad but I persevered through that but found the simulation itself wanting. Just could not get the game to play anything like the real battle. Started making house rules and checking research for missing units etc. and realized I would have a major redesign on my hands.

I am glad that Joe has stuck with it and hope that someday it will be a very clean system with well written rules and they are able to go back and support the older games with the same care.
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steve john
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[q="gohrns"]I have played GB. The original. At Origins. With Dean.

Edited - please see recent comments.

Thank you.
 
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steve john
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Edited - please see recent comments.

Thank you.


 
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Joseph Youst
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Right now, I am on page 31 of the basic rulebook re-write that will incorporate every bit of errata and clarification we have had up to now. Soon I will send it to Doug for his input. Next, I do the same for AWall exc rules. By the fall, final rulebooks should be posted.

an example of the re-write:

Truck Point motorization is being amended so that it is handled in the same manner as dismounting/remounting of motorized/mechanized infantry. From now on, it will occur during the movement phase and require the same MP expenditure for both forms (TPs and organic transport). You won't be able to mount/dismount in any hex that the enemy would ordinarily exert a Move Halt into. This will greatly simplify the process.
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steve john
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joeyoust wrote:
Right now, I am on page 31 of the basic rulebook re-write that will incorporate every bit of errata and clarification we have had up to now. Soon I will send it to Doug for his input. Next, I do the same for AWall exc rules. By the fall, final rulebooks should be posted.

an example of the re-write:

Truck Point motorization is being amended so that it is handled in the same manner as dismounting/remounting of motorized/mechanized infantry. From now on, it will occur during the movement phase and require the same MP expenditure for both forms (TPs and organic transport). You won't be able to mount/dismount in any hex that the enemy would ordinarily exert a Move Halt into. This will greatly simplify the process.


Great news!

 
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Ian Brown
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Joe,

Not disappointed in the game system, but still waiting for a response to my posting on AW2 re the British/Canadian "bite and hold" fighting style.

Ian
 
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steve john
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gohrns wrote:
Ashiefan wrote:

How long would it take to teach someone this game bearing in mind what you have highlighted in your post, Tom?



Lol!!!

Just get started and enjoy the process.


This.

Just jump in and enjoy the process.

Beginning to get my head around the system.

Finding myself amazed at the details and nuances of the GOSS system.

The GOSS system is a work of art, a work of genius, and a portal to board wargaming nirvana.
 
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Nolan Hudgens
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rmiller1093 wrote:
Some day I will give these games a try again. WaR 2004 version just about killed any interest. The rules were bad but I persevered through that but found the simulation itself wanting. Just could not get the game to play anything like the real battle. Started making house rules and checking research for missing units etc. and realized I would have a major redesign on my hands.


The 2004 system isn't that different than the more recent versions. Using the "v1.05" rules takes away nearly all of the awkward spots from the print rulebooks. (Thanks, Michael Junkin!) Two things let play get very close to the real battle:
(1) Use the parent unit's P ratings for breakdown companies, at least for the first few days. (after that it's a pain to track) That gives the 28 ID's outpost line some survivability.
(2) Remember to allow replacement, in every turn, using the repl steps generated by aggregating lost steps. That lets certain battalions hold in place so that they don't have to give up their Entrenchments right away.
(3) [so I can't count] Judicious use of the US artillery (even where there isn't much) can be a real equalizer.
(4) And for the Germans, remember to use Exploit Mode correctly.
(5) There's a US 155 Corps Arty unit that sets up near Wiltz, which should be in both of the 16 Dec short scenarios for Skyline Drive and 7th Army. (it's listed only for the 7th Army one.)

Yep, I really can't count.
 
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