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Ortus Regni» Forums » Rules

Subject: Is Ortus Regni Broken... ? rss

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Shell R
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:(

So, we've a hundred or so games in our collection. We saw Ortus Regni on the internet, loved it, ordered it and some game mats, and we've been delighted with the theme, component quality, art, everything ever since...

We've now played a dozen or so games in the last week. Awesome. And then, a strategy developed during deck creation between the red and blue earls:

1. Collect all 6 of each of the Champions, Mercs, and Vassal's, with a prince and a banner, so on.

2. Wait a round.

3. Battle from your hand.

4. Win the game outright.

Can someone PLEASE tell us the game isn't broken and we've miss-read the rules or something?

Thank you.
 
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Cole Wehrle
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Were towers not sufficient to stop it?

 
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Shell R
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Even if Player 1's first action is to field 5 towers, Player 2 still stands a good chance of winning on round 2.

= back and forth stalemate...
 
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Cole Wehrle
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Quote:
= back and forth stalemate...


Not exactly. Unless the towers are being targeted, they are going to stay up while the other player is going to burn through their hand.

I'd have to run the numbers, but I'm curious about the likelihood of a killer starting hand with an optimal combat-deck. This is a strategy I've tried before and, once my opponent knew what-was-what, it was pretty easily brushed off.
 
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John R.
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The two-player tournament rule (no attacks or politics for the first two rounds) might put a damper on this strategy. Also, if your opponent is known to play this sort of hand, a heavily political deck could be a successful counter.

Situations like these are why I'm interested in some sort of point-based system where your starting deck is restricted and can't be changed drastically from one game to another.
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Cole Wehrle
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We stumbled on a method of playing that my wife and I have used for the last 30 plays or so. Basically, only the looser of the previous round can adjust his or her deck for the next one. It keeps the game firmly in the donkey space and creates a really knotty metagame.
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José Antonio Rivero
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Quote:
Basically, only the looser of the previous round can adjust his or her deck for the next one.


I would go a bit further with this variant, and moreover to create some more uncertainty and avoid knowing 100 % of the other player's hand.
Keep 20 cards from the previous round and select 4 new ones to form the new starting deck.
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John R.
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jarinu wrote:
Keep 20 cards from the previous round and select 4 new ones to form the new starting deck.

Yes, I'd support something like this. Maybe the loser returns 4 cards to the tray and then takes 4 back (some of which could be the same!), whereas the winner only gets to exchange 2 cards. Both sides need some flexibility in reacting to their opponent, especially if the starting decks are not identical.
 
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Ortus Regni
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Sham830 wrote:
1. Collect all 6 of each of the Champions, Mercs, and Vassal's, with a prince and a banner, so on.

2. Wait a round.

3. Battle from your hand.

4. Win the game outright.




Just one quick double-check, from the wording of the post above, Mercenaries cannot be played from the Hand into a battle, and must have previously been played into your Earldom to be used in combat.

I assume you already played like that, just checking.

Chuckle, if they could be used directly from the Hand then that deck style might truly be unstoppable!
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Ortus Regni
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We call the deck you describe the “rush deck” strategy. For obvious reasons. And it is a powerful way to try and quickly win a 2 player duel.

There are a couple deck design strategies that can be used to attempt to counter a rush deck.

Here is one sample deck idea:

6 Castles
6 Treacheries
3 Mercenaries
3 Lands
3 Princes
3 Intrigues

The main things rush decks don’t like are Towers and Castles and Treacheries (well, no one loves Treacheries). With the above deck design you would aim to Treachery the Hand of the rush deck, whenever you had a Treachery card. You would also attempt to keep a mimimum of two Fiefs out at all times.

The first turn is also important when facing a rush deck. You hope to go first, true, and you also want to be able to Treachery their Hand right away. Importantly, you will also Tower all the remaining cards in your opening Hand (after you play a Treachery or Castle, for instance). And then aim to never have two cards in your hand, i.e. if you cannot play a card you will Tower it before you draw your card to end your turn. This way you never fall prey to a Treachery that takes two of your precious cards; which might otherwise have been Towers, that they had to go through to get at you.


There are a couple other flavors in this deck strategy, depending on what kind of rush deck you think your opponent might use. For instance…

6 Castles
6 Treacheries
3 Monks
3 Lands
3 Princes
3 Intrigues

And if you can get a Monk to the Vikings then they might help sink the rush reck with some Viking help. As rush decks have poor def in their Earldoms often, and no Towers usually.

Or, if you think your rusher is unlikely to love Mercenaries you could go in this direction…

6 Castles
6 Treacheries
3 Monks
3 Lands
4 Princes
2 Banquets

Outside of the Castles and Treacheries - in this build style - you are modifying the cards based on what style of rush deck you think they might use, in short. If they are really Mercenary heavy 4 Intrigues might pay off.

Basically, with this angle you are not going to have Allies, and try and contest the political fight. But it is also unlikely that a real rusher will have allies either, as it slows them down a lot. There is another rush def deck angle that can try to go that way, with Allies, and maybe using Banquets to try and draw more cards out faster, to ramp up the number of Towers; but it is tricky against a truly pure rush deck.

Another tactic is that rush decks also really don’t like being rushed back; as it is costly to spend your precious Champions from the Hand to defend your Palace. So it can also be worth trying some modified rush deck back at them, perhaps with a Monk or two or a Banquet or two, etc.

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Ortus Regni
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Now… those decks and strategies do not use any of the variant rules that we have published, but several of them are also very appealing here (as a couple users have noted). We particularly like Legacy Points, since they are such a simple but powerful rule and start the game in a more middle game state, which causes trouble for rush decks.

The Tournament Rules were the first optional rules that we published, and it was always intended to make random duel match-ups less prone to the obvious rush deck attempt.

We call the tendency for two opponents to try a rush deck when meeting in a duel a suboptimal maxima. It can be countered, but that forces the defender to react accordingly which limits their strategy and tactics, so it is real.

While two players will tend to move away from that maxima if they play each other repeatedly, we also knew there were simple optional tweaks to remove rushes almost entirely (if that is what people wanted to do). One thing that appealed to us in creating the card set and rules was that this was a basic core system, which could be modified or expanded at will without adding cards or components to purchase. So free to the gamer. And that is mainly what we have been doing over the last year.

It is interesting that suboptimal maxima occur with some frequency in trading card, collectible card, and expanding card games. When some cards or some meta combination of cards are discovered to be overpowered. In those scenarios cards are occasionally banned from certain modes of play, or new cards or expansions are sold that counter the over powered mechanisms. We think our free and growing mods for the Ortus Regni system are possibly a nice counterpoint to the more transactional nature of those situations. We always aimed for Ortus Regni to be a bit of a Middle Ages gaming sandbox that could be employed in a wide variety of gaming scenarios.

Chuckle, and we still have not exhausted our pipeline of variants coming out over the next couple months

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Remus Rhymus
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A friend of mine stopped by yesterday and we played about 10 games of OR. I won the first two games and then he built a rush deck that was really tough to beat.

6 banquets
6 vassals
6 champions

was the heart of it and just in case the strategy went south, he added stuff to bequeath if necessary. I don't remember the exact breakdown of the rest of the deck but it was something like

2 (or 3) princes
3 (or 2) banners
1 church

I read this thread a while back, but I didn't remember the suggested counters. I'm not an experienced ccg or lcg player (I've dabbled), so other than building a similar rush deck, I had a difficult time thinking of a good counter. I got to the point where I could delay the rush for a bit, but still lost a few turns later. We played base rules and tried two turns, two towers as well. My opponent felt his deck wouldn't be effective with two turns, two towers and it did slow him down, but he was still able to dominate. Again, my inexperience with deck construction may have attributed to that. Now I've come back and re-read this thread and would like to test out the suggested decks and strategies to see how they would do.

I think the rush deck is interesting, but I hope I can find an effective counter so the emerging meta forces us to build different decks. Otherwise the game will get stale for me quicker than I hoped (at least 2 player games against an opponent who uses that strategy consistently).


 
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John R.
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In my opinion, if you're playing to counter a rush deck then you can't really do much else, and if you aren't then it's difficult to resist it. And since you don't know if it's coming, you're restricted to playing suboptimally solely out of fear of that deck. This is why I like the Tournament variant (two turns, two towers) and/or the idea of legacy/point cost systems that initially limit your ability to build such a deck and only allows you to change your hand by a few cards from game to game.

That said, if I were trying to limit my vulnerability to such decks I would tend to go for Monks and Vassals (to gain control of the vikings) and probably a lot of political cards, especially Treachery. I don't normally like heavily political decks (which are also hard to resist) but I have no qualms whatsoever about bringing them out against someone who plays politics or rush decks.

I might try something like this as a defence against the deck described above - no idea how well it would work, though :

2 Castle
1 Church
1 Cathedral
2 Prince
2 Vassal
4 Monk
2 Intrigue
4 Treachery
2 Allies
1 Banquet
3 Banner
 
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Remus Rhymus
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Interestingly, he told me this morning that he tried this rush deck against the hard AI and lost every time. I did the same and lost against Hard AI twice.

Yeah, I think my thought that it's too difficult to counter is due to my inexperience with deck construction. Playing that deck against the AI gave me some good ideas.
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Remus Rhymus
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timeodanaos wrote:


That said, if I were trying to limit my vulnerability to such decks I would tend to go for Monks and Vassals (to gain control of the vikings) and probably a lot of political cards, especially Treachery.


Treachery, Towers and Castles seem to be a good counter (at least from the AI)

Not so sure about heavy emissaries because the early attacks would delay the vikings from arriving and when the rush deck works, it seems to be over in 6 turns or less.
 
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John R.
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remus wrote:
Not so sure about heavy emissaries because the early attacks would delay the vikings from arriving and when the rush deck works, it seems to be over in 6 turns or less.

That's a very good point.
 
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Scott Muldoon (silentdibs)
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remus wrote:
Not so sure about heavy emissaries because the early attacks would delay the vikings from arriving and when the rush deck works, it seems to be over in 6 turns or less.


Of course every emissary advances the viking arrival as well...

Does the rush deck post towers at all? It might take only one viking attack to win the game if not.
 
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Remus Rhymus
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sdiberar wrote:
Of course every emissary advances the viking arrival as well...


I thought about this right after posting. It would be interesting to test, but I still think Vikings would be too slow to work in most cases.

sdiberar wrote:
Does the rush deck post towers at all? It might take only one viking attack to win the game if not.


He didn't seem to bother with towers from what I recall.
 
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