Jeremy Mease
msg tools
designer
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
Saw this on another forum...

https://www.kickstarter.com/projects/239709734/star-traders/...

Is this acceptable? How much artwork can (or should) you "borrow" before it's actually stealing? Not accusing anyone, but it looks like most of the art assets on their kick starter page are cribbed from deviant art.

Unless the artist did these original sketches maybe?

But the sketch version sure tries to make the art look original, as if it was drawn by the artist who posted it in the KS.


21 
 Thumb up
0.01
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Matt D
United States
Peachtree corners
Georgia
flag msg tools
badge
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
ReluctantFr0g wrote:
Saw this on another forum...

https://www.kickstarter.com/projects/239709734/star-traders/...

Is this acceptable? How much artwork can (or should) you "borrow" before it's actually stealing? Not accusing anyone, but it looks like most of the art assets on their kick starter page are cribbed from deviant art.

Unless the artist did these original sketches maybe?

But the sketch version sure tries to make the art look original, as if it was drawn by the artist who posted it in the KS.




Wow. That's pretty damning, actually. I checked out the fighter pilot uniform image and it was posted in 2008.

Where did you find that sketch version?

I don't know much about the legality of these things and how protected copyrights are, but if I were whitedragon I'd be a bit peeved right about now. If the one you have labeled "DnD Art" was published by WotC, this guy could be in a lot of trouble as I am sure their artwork is VERY well protected...
17 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Cory Ledoux
United States
Dallas
Texas
flag msg tools
badge
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
Well, they probably won't have to worry too much about cribbing designs from the movie Stealth. That would involve someone coming forward and admitting they were involved in the making of the movie Stealth.
85 
 Thumb up
1.00
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Jacob
United States
Elkhorn
Wisconsin
flag msg tools
get off of the computer.
badge
play the games you have.
Avatar
mb
cledoux wrote:
Well, they probably won't have to worry too much about cribbing designs from the movie Stealth. That would involve someone coming forward and admitting they were involved in the making of the movie Stealth.


Star Wars and D&D, on the other hand...
7 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
George P.E., PMP, DM
United States
Austin
Texas
flag msg tools
Hourglass Realm D&D 5e Play by Forum (PbF) Campaign DM (we'd love to have you join us!)
badge
U.S.S. Tautog (SSN 639) doing an emergency blow with me on it (see profile for details)
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
Looks like they copied Lord British, too. He's a local hero
4 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Moray Johnson
Austria
Wien
flag msg tools
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
Outright copying DnD armor is probably not something WotC will take lightly. If I had to guess I'd say the artist was just cheaping out on the art without the project creator knowing. Has this been brought to their attention already?
6 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Pete
United States
Northbrook
Illinois
flag msg tools
badge
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
It's a good thing that Lucasfilm and/or Disney have a good sense of humor about intellectual property!

Pete (snorts)
45 
 Thumb up
0.01
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Jeremy Mease
msg tools
designer
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
Tzer wrote:
Outright copying DnD armor is probably not something WotC will take lightly. If I had to guess I'd say the artist was just cheaping out on the art without the project creator knowing. Has this been brought to their attention already?


Wow, can anyone send them a note about this? Just in case? shake
1 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Jeremy Mease
msg tools
designer
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
hestiansun wrote:
ReluctantFr0g wrote:
Saw this on another forum...

https://www.kickstarter.com/projects/239709734/star-traders/...

Is this acceptable? How much artwork can (or should) you "borrow" before it's actually stealing? Not accusing anyone, but it looks like most of the art assets on their kick starter page are cribbed from deviant art.

Unless the artist did these original sketches maybe?

But the sketch version sure tries to make the art look original, as if it was drawn by the artist who posted it in the KS.




Wow. That's pretty damning, actually. I checked out the fighter pilot uniform image and it was posted in 2008.

Where did you find that sketch version?

I don't know much about the legality of these things and how protected copyrights are, but if I were whitedragon I'd be a bit peeved right about now. If the one you have labeled "DnD Art" was published by WotC, this guy could be in a lot of trouble as I am sure their artwork is VERY well protected...


Sketch version was on their facebook page I believe.


NOTE: All artwork shown above has now been removed from their facebook and twitter accounts...

Something is going on for sure.
8 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Jason Webster
United States
Connecticut
flag msg tools
mbmbmbmbmb
Aw crap. Looks like such s good game too. David says he is getting completely new artwork for the game.
2 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Darth Heisenberg
Spain
Death Star
A galaxy far, far away
flag msg tools
"Apology accepted, Captain Needa."
badge
"Say my name"
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
ReluctantFr0g wrote:
Saw this on another forum...

https://www.kickstarter.com/projects/239709734/star-traders/...

Is this acceptable? How much artwork can (or should) you "borrow" before it's actually stealing? Not accusing anyone, but it looks like most of the art assets on their kick starter page are cribbed from deviant art.

Unless the artist did these original sketches maybe?

But the sketch version sure tries to make the art look original, as if it was drawn by the artist who posted it in the KS.




wowwow

shake
1 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Rick Vinyard
United States
Las Cruces
NM
flag msg tools
badge
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
I do find the other posted examples troubling as well. As long as the artwork is changed I don't think the game will encounter legal trouble, but the copying without labelling it as prototypes is concerning.

Also, the box art looks to be copied from http://www.expressionschallenge.com/planets/

This claims to show the creation process: http://tradersluck.com/files/2016/03/Maverick_Sandi-Process....

But, the following crop looks too much like a copy from the movie Stealth than the original sketch as claimed. In particular, the folds on the shirt in the final image look like they came from the lower image instead of the first upper image.
8 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Moray Johnson
Austria
Wien
flag msg tools
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
rvinyard wrote:

This claims to show the creation process: http://tradersluck.com/files/2016/03/Maverick_Sandi-Process....

But, the following crop looks too much like a copy from the movie Stealth than the original sketch as claimed. In particular, the folds on the shirt in the final image look like they came from the lower image instead of the first upper image.


Anyone who knows at least a bit about art/photoshop can see besides the first sketch these are clearly not "in-progress" pictures, but rather the finished picture with filters on it to remove details.
34 
 Thumb up
0.05
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Jeremy Mease
msg tools
designer
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
rvinyard wrote:
I do find the other posted examples troubling as well. As long as the artwork is changed I don't think the game will encounter legal trouble, but the copying without labelling it as prototypes is concerning.

Also, the box art looks to be copied from http://www.expressionschallenge.com/planets/

This claims to show the creation process: http://tradersluck.com/files/2016/03/Maverick_Sandi-Process....

But, the following crop looks too much like a copy from the movie Stealth than the original sketch as claimed. In particular, the folds on the shirt in the final image look like they came from the lower image instead of the first upper image.


It's one thing to borrow sample art, I get it...

but do you really have to show the process of you creating "original" art to cover it up? angry
7 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Rick Vinyard
United States
Las Cruces
NM
flag msg tools
badge
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
Tzer wrote:
rvinyard wrote:

This claims to show the creation process: http://tradersluck.com/files/2016/03/Maverick_Sandi-Process....

But, the following crop looks too much like a copy from the movie Stealth than the original sketch as claimed. In particular, the folds on the shirt in the final image look like they came from the lower image instead of the first upper image.


Anyone who knows at least a bit about art/photoshop can see besides the first sketch these are clearly not "in-progress" pictures, but rather the finished picture with filters on it to remove details.

I think that's the crux of the issue... quite a few people are familiar with Photoshop, Gimp, et. al., but those that aren't wouldn't know the difference. If I had to guess, David Ladyman, the creator of the project, isn't familiar with Photoshop and posted the image in good faith.

What I find disappointing is that his artist supplied him with that as proof of the image's originality because it appears completely contrived to me.
5 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Moray Johnson
Austria
Wien
flag msg tools
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
Yet, it has also been pointed out to David that the artist in question has been doing that (using other pictures as "references") in other pictures of his "original" artwork and David just keeps defending him.

Even if he completely redrew it, he still traced the picture AND just copied the uniform designs, which is not much better.

They just started a live stream for the last 8 hours of the KS and I saw someone just asking whether they were going to address the art issues and the user in question was banned instantly (and had the question removed).

8 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Stanley Dimant
Switzerland
Holziken
Aargau
flag msg tools
badge
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb




It doesn't stop.
21 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Moray Johnson
Austria
Wien
flag msg tools
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
Well, maybe he completely redrew that one too!

(Guess what, whether he actually did or not [he probably didn't] doesn't actually matter, you're still just copying someone else's work.)
5 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Matt D
United States
Peachtree corners
Georgia
flag msg tools
badge
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
What I find most disappointing about all of this is the designer's response. It seems pretty clear to most people that the "art" provided to him was lifted from the works of others (one commenter on the KS) pointed out that box cover itself is just a rotated clip from a Walgreens contest (http://www.expressionschallenge.com/planets/). I'm going to guess from what I have seen of his project and his writing, he himself is not foolish enough to not see the "similarities" for what they are, and is instead choosing to dig his head into the sand.

He's repeatedly offered excuses in the comments section of the KS, first that they are "parodies", and then they they borrowed elements but clearly weren't the same (referencing specific wrinkles of clothing as proof).

I'm afraid that he is stuck in that he cannot afford to replace this artist at this time -- either he has funds tied up in the artist, or the artist (for now obvious reasons) was so much cheaper than an actual artist that he can't now budget in a real artist given how much he is raising. So instead of planning a strategy around it, he is just going to hope that he can make it work and no one big enough will notice to stop him.

Unfortunately, as one of my wiser managers once taught me many years ago, "Hope is not a strategy".


I'm very sad for David because I believe he started out completely innocent in this, and just got snuckered by Ryan (the artist) when presented with a "portfolio" (likely also filled with stolen Photoshopped images), and didn't do enough due diligence before paying him. It also appears from their website that Ryan is listed as a "founder" of the company -- I sincerely hope that that is just an honorific on the website, because if this artist has found a way to con David into giving him any equity into the company itself in exchange for his "work", it becomes way, way harder to extricate him from this mess.

If Ryan is just hired help, David at least has a choice between cutting ties and moving on to try to get his project done "the right way", or closing his eyes and praying that he can make it work this way. IMO, however, here is where he is making the wrong choice.

David should withdraw the Kickstarter (even though it is almost at the end of its campaign), obtain a new artist, and submit it again, even if this requires a higher total needed to be achieved to publish. He may still get it, who knows. But anyone pledging money into a game with artwork copied from Disney and WotC is playing with fire that it'll see the light of day.

P.S.: It is disheartening to see the vitriol from some backers of the game on the comments thread. While it is nothing new to see backers lash out at anything that they perceive to be criticism at a game they are backing, they are reacting poorly to people trying to HELP them. They aren't saying David is a bad guy -- they are trying to make a clear point to backers that they face a real financial risk at this point of losing all of their money should David face litigation from the various legitimate companies whose art has been stolen (WotC, Disney, Walgreens). But, as they say, no good deed goes unpunished. It's a sad situation, but it'll be made even sadder when those same backers come on here to bash David for not being able to deliver the game that they put $50 into -- at which point they must certainly will have forgotten that they were warned. So much negativity coming from one person's lack of ethics.
43 
 Thumb up
0.01
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Stanley Dimant
Switzerland
Holziken
Aargau
flag msg tools
badge
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb




I get the feeling that there's zero original art in that game.

Quote:
David should withdraw the Kickstarter (even though it is almost at the end of its campaign), obtain a new artist, and submit it again, even if this requires a higher total needed to be achieved to publish. He may still get it, who knows. But anyone pledging money into a game with artwork copied from Disney and WotC is playing with fire that it'll see the light of day.


I completely agree. They easily could land in sue city after all the plagiarism of the artwork.
11 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Matt D
United States
Peachtree corners
Georgia
flag msg tools
badge
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
What I also find somewhat interesting is that while this thread has been pointed out on the KS page, and someone started a new thread under the Star Traders forum pointing to this thread, neither
Ryan Archer
United States
Austin
Texas
flag msg tools
designer
or
David Ladyman
United States
Texas
flag msg tools
designer
mb
have felt any need to chime in here.

I mean, I can understand it. I'm sure David is thoroughly embarrassed and REALLY hoping that this all goes away (hint: it won't). Ryan, though, I figure would have cropped up by this point since he clearly is working to try to manufacture a defense of his work.

I just feel sad. I feel like this could have been a great project, and it's all just unfortunate.
4 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Moray Johnson
Austria
Wien
flag msg tools
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
rootdarkarchon wrote:


I get the feeling that there's zero original art in that game.



You are correct, the Star Traders image in this gif is made out of three parts: The background, the body/armor, and the head of the person. All 3 are just copied from somewhere else.

It seems to me that the "artist" in question only knows photoshop, but not much about actually creating original art from scratch.
9 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Moray Johnson
Austria
Wien
flag msg tools
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
hestiansun wrote:
I mean, I can understand it. I'm sure David is thoroughly embarrassed and REALLY hoping that this all goes away (hint: it won't).


It's really strange. Even IF the campaign funds (I doubt it, unless a miraculous, very generous donor crops up), David might still be stuck with the same artist, and you can bet that every single piece of art that is posted will be examined thoroughly by backers, and they won't be able to include any artworks created by this questionable method in the actual game (because then they would be at a serious risk of being sued).
1 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Freelance Police
United States
Palo Alto
California
flag msg tools
designer
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
hestiansun wrote:
He's repeatedly offered excuses in the comments section


Not admitting a mistake and doubling-down on an error. I'll wait for his "Second Created" project, thanks.

(He's offering t-shirts??? How many articles from experienced KS creators has he not read???)
5 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
salem .
Australia
flag msg tools
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
Well it just got funded. So break out the popcorn and settle in for the next 12 months of excitement.
9 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
1 , 2 , 3 , 4 , 5  Next »  [11] | 
Front Page | Welcome | Contact | Privacy Policy | Terms of Service | Advertise | Support BGG | Feeds RSS
Geekdo, BoardGameGeek, the Geekdo logo, and the BoardGameGeek logo are trademarks of BoardGameGeek, LLC.