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Subject: (obsolete) Rules FAQs Answered rss

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Michael Van Biesbrouck
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Lots of work was done to remove power conflicts prior to the PnP/published version and several powers were changed. Everything in this thread is obsolete.

Gord! has been answering questions in the Kickstarter comments and many questions have answers in posts about the self-published version of Santorini. I'll put these things together here and hopefully the final version of the rules will address everything.

General

Winning

You can win in one of the following ways:

* on your turn, one of your pieces climbs to level 3 (moving from one level 3 spot to another does not count)
* use of a special power (e.g. Pan) on your own turn
* all of your opponents lose

The game ends immediately when you win; you do not need to complete your turn.

No Legal Moves

If a player cannot take a legal turn, he removes all of his pieces from the board and loses.

Normally your turn must include both a move and build action. You can also win before building and some powers may allow you to avoid building (e.g. Morpheus).

Blocks and Domes

Domes are special cases of blocks, so powers that refer to blocks also apply to domes. When a builder would place a block at level 4, it will be a dome.

Movement Powers

When powers such as Apollo's swap cause altitude changes they count as climbing up or jumping down.

Heroic Powers

These powers are single-use. You can't be forced to use them by another power, but you will need to obey other powers while using them (but see Power Conflicts, below).

Setup

When it is your turn to place pieces, place both of your pieces.

Power Conflicts

If two powers are in conflict, the correct resolution will be one that doesn't entirely eliminate one of the powers. (The resolution should also appear below.) It is normal for some powers to be weaker against others.

Artemis vs Persephone

Artemis must step up a least once if possible but isn't required to step up a second time. Legal:

0 A0 1 2 -> 0 0 A1 2 (stepped up, but did not take a second move to step up again when possible)

A0 1 -> 0 1
2 0 -> 2 A0 (stepped up to 1 but went back down to 0 when stepping up to 2 was possible)


Illegal:

0 A0 0 1 -> A0 0 0 1 (could have stepped up on the second move had she gone the other way)


Hades vs Pan

Pan may jump down exactly two levels to win, but otherwise may not jump down.

Hecate vs ...

Apollo: When moving, you have two options: 'I wish to move here, swapping if necessary' (always succeeds) and 'I attempt to move here normally' (may fail). If Apollo swaps with Hecate then Apollo does not discover this; only Hecate knows that she was moved.

Bia: When she could push a builder out of her destination square, she has the same options and consequences as Apollo.

Dionysus: You get to see Hecate's board.

Heracles (and other powers that let you do multiple things): Place domes one a time when you play minesweeper against Hecate.

Medusa: Medusa's power is assumed to be active unless she says she does not want to use it on a particular turn.

Heroes: If they lose their turn due to a failed heroic power, completely reverse the use of the power. They can try to use the power again later.

Hermes vs Persephone

If it is possible to step up, Hermes cannot take his special turn.

Individual Powers

Clio

Powers cannot move another player's builders onto your sacred blocks (e.g., Bia's push).

If you build a non-sacred block on top of a sacred one, other players may move or build onto that block.

Dionysus

Nobody can win on Dionysus' extra turn.

You do not gain additional extra turns by placing domes on your extra turn.

The above rules are all you need to know. The following explanation was previously approved but may be obsolete:

When you take a turn as another player, it is your turn. Moving your opponent to level 3 doesn't cause either of you to win (not the turn of the piece being moved). Having your opponent move you to level 3 doesn't cause you to win (not climbing up, just being moved). Nobody should ever be able to win on the extra turn (a change from earlier versions), but you can move your opponents into positions where they will have no legal moves.

Gaia

For two-player games only.

Hecate

Hecate will have a mini board to track her movements.

Pan

Pan must jump down exactly two levels to win using his special victory condition (e.g. from level 2 to 0 or 3 to 1).

Polyphemus

Your power can be used any time on your turn.

Unanswered Questions

What happens during setup if a player places on Hecate? Is the setup turn lost?

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Lee Mitchell
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Re: Rules FAQs Answered
Where is it stated that you win only if you move onto level 3 and then build? From the Kickstarter page: "If either of your builders moves onto the third level, you win."

This also brings up how can Pan jump from level 3 to level 1? As I see it, a Pan builder can only jump from level 2 to level 0 to win. If the builder is on level 3 - Pan's already won.

Also, the Dionysus ruling. Where was that? The old card specifically said that "If you win when moving for another player, they get the glory."
 
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George Leach
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Re: Rules FAQs Answered
I'm not sure where but I remember reading Gord clarifying that you must move up to the 3rd Tier on your turn to win (aside: I was not aware that you need to then build, though I guess you should always be able to build on the level you just vacated).

If Dionysus moves Pan to level 3 then due to the clarification above Pan does not win but could then win if jumping down to level 1.
 
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George Leach
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Re: Rules FAQs Answered
mlvanbie wrote:
Q: Does a player lose as soon as she has no pieces or only on her turn? If it is only on your turn, can you use start of turn powers on that turn?


How does a player lose pieces?

I would assume if the special power allows you to then take a turn it would seem obvious that you have not therefore lost since you have a valid move.
 
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Chris Laudermilk
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Re: Rules FAQs Answered
Here's a quote from Gordon answering some questions on the KS comments:

Quote:
"Q: Does a player lose as soon as she has no pieces or only on her turn? If it is only on your turn, can you use start of turn powers on that turn?"
A: The number of blocks is not limiting so the only ways to end an atheistic game is 1) a builder gets to the third level (wins) or 2) a player cannot move either of their builders (loses).
"Q: If Dionysus takes a turn as Bia and pushes one of his pieces from level 2 to level 3, does that count as climbing up?"
A: No. You must win on YOUR turn by CLIMBING UP.
"Q: Can you win by special power when it is not your turn? (E.g., Dionysus or Bia causes Pan to go down two levels; might be a different answer for each.)"
A: No. You must win on YOUR turn.


So, as I understand it winning conditions are:
1 You step your builder up to level 3 on your turn.
2 Your opponent has no legal moves.
3 You use a special power on your turn.
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Michael Van Biesbrouck
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Re: Rules FAQs Answered
Jugular wrote:
I'm not sure where but I remember reading Gord clarifying that you must move up to the 3rd Tier on your turn to win (aside: I was not aware that you need to then build, though I guess you should always be able to build on the level you just vacated).

If Dionysus moves Pan to level 3 then due to the clarification above Pan does not win but could then win if jumping down to level 1.


For Pan, Bia is a definite case where you can get to level 3 not on your turn and not climbing; Gord! addressed that one specifically.

The old rules didn't require you to win on your turn. I will seek clarification about whose turn it is when Dionysus takes a turn as another player.

Needing to build after moving (powers excepted) is part of a complete turn. If you play against Cleo, you might not be able to build on the spot that you vacated (currently checking that Bia can push pieces onto Cleo's sacred spots).
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George Leach
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Re: Rules FAQs Answered
mlvanbie wrote:
Needing to build after moving (powers excepted) is part of a complete turn. If you play against Cleo, you might not be able to build on the spot that you vacated.


I think that's worthy of clarification since it's not how it's been described in all the quotes we've seen.
 
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Michael Van Biesbrouck
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Re: Rules FAQs Answered
Jugular wrote:
mlvanbie wrote:
Q: Does a player lose as soon as she has no pieces or only on her turn? If it is only on your turn, can you use start of turn powers on that turn?


How does a player lose pieces?

I would assume if the special power allows you to then take a turn it would seem obvious that you have not therefore lost since you have a valid move.


Medusa can turn your pieces into blocks.

Currently there aren't any start of turn powers (Medusa's power used to be one), but consider the three-player game where you are about to lose....
 
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Lee Mitchell
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Re: Rules FAQs Answered
And that clears up some of my issues - A Bia can push a Pan builder up onto level 3 and then the Pan builder could theoretically jump to level 1.

BUT - what if, playing as Bia on his extra turn, the Dionysus player moved a Bia builder onto level 3? Since it's his turn, wouldn't the Dionysus (as Bia) player win?
 
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Michael Van Biesbrouck
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Re: Rules FAQs Answered
Jugular wrote:
I think that's worthy of clarification since it's not how it's been described in all the quotes we've seen.


The FAQ in the 2004 edition says 'You must move a man each turn and then build around that man. If this is impossible, you have lost the game and your men are removed from play.'

This is also a clear source for placing both pieces at the same time during setup. Now I know why I always played that part correctly
 
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Lee Mitchell
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Re: Rules FAQs Answered
The 2007 rules here on BGG state: "A man who climbs to the third level has won the game." There's no mention of building afterwards.

I guess it's moot since as someone else said you can just build on the block you just left but still ...
 
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Michael Van Biesbrouck
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Re: Rules FAQs Answered
The FAQ in the 2007 edition says the same thing as what I quoted. If you can't take a complete turn then you aren't allowed to move and will just be removed from the game. You will need to build unless your power lets you avoid it. Anyway, it is still unclear if you can get into a situation where it will matter with the powers that will be published (I still need official answers to "Bia pushes A's builder onto Clio's sacred block" and "can Apollo win by swapping places to level 3").
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Lee Mitchell
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Re: Rules FAQs Answered
I read Dr. Hamilton's reply to your question about Dionysus on the Kickstarter and it doesn't really make it clear if Dionysus wins if on his extra turn he moves a Pan builder down two levels. He does seem to clarify that it is the Dionysus's players turn though - so wouldn't this mean a win for the Dionysus player?

I guess the real question should be - if, on his extra turn, a Dionysus player completes any win condition does he win the game? And vice versa, if the Dionysus player cannot move any piece or completes some other losing condition during his extra turn, does he lose?

I'm sorry I seem to be picking on Dionysus but he really is the only god I'm having trouble with.
 
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Lee Mitchell
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Re: Rules FAQs Answered
Found a question for a different god

If I'm playing Bia and I try to move onto level one block with an opponent's builder and there's a level three tower without a dome adjacent to that builder can I push that builder onto that tower? It's seems like that's a two level climb, which you normally can't do but Bia's power states 'at any level'.

Thanks.

Oh! I'd ask on the Kickstarter but I'm part of a group buy and it's not through my account.
 
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Michael Van Biesbrouck
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Re: Rules FAQs Answered
strongbow25 wrote:
I read Dr. Hamilton's reply to your question about Dionysus on the Kickstarter and it doesn't really make it clear if Dionysus wins if on his extra turn he moves a Pan builder down two levels. He does seem to clarify that it is the Dionysus's players turn though - so wouldn't this mean a win for the Dionysus player?


Gord!'s style is parsimony in rules and clarifications, so things can be confusing/misleading if Gord! and a reader have different understandings of a question that was asked (due to lack of error-correcting information). The conversation from KS:

mlvanbie wrote:
Q: I would like to clarify whose turn it is when Dionysus takes a bonus turn as another player. Previously you could cause your opponent to win, but now you have clarified that causing Pan to jump down during the bonus turn isn't a win for Pan because it isn't Pan's turn. So does that mean that it is Dionysus' turn and the opponent can't win in any way and Dionysus can't win because anything that happens to him won't count as climbing?


Gord! wrote:
A: Yes - That is a consistent way to figure out what is to be done in these cases.


My belief is that Gord! responded to the italicized part of the text above -- the actual question.

strongbow25 wrote:
I guess the real question should be - if, on his extra turn, a Dionysus player completes any win condition does he win the game?


It is Dionysos' turn, preventing the other player(s) from winning by any means (you can only win on your own turn) and making an opponent move his pieces won't count as climbing up so he can't win by his only victory condition. If you were playing with two powers at the same time then Dionysos might conceivably win through the other power. (This doesn't work with Pan, but there is an upcoming power that Gord! hinted at where the wording might matter.)

If you mean, can you win by completing your opponent's victory condition with his pieces, the answer is 'no' because because his pieces can only achieve victory on his turn.

strongbow25 wrote:
And vice versa, if the Dionysus player cannot move any piece or completes some other losing condition during his extra turn, does he lose?


Maybe. Taking the extra turn is optional, so I suggest you don't take it if there are no legal moves :)

strongbow25 wrote:
I'm sorry I seem to be picking on Dionysus but he really is the only god I'm having trouble with.


He has always been the most confusing power, and the core rules have changed so it is good to work through all the issues.

You may want to back for $1 to get full access to the campaign.
 
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Michael Van Biesbrouck
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Re: Rules FAQs Answered
mlvanbie wrote:
You will need to build unless your power lets you avoid it. Anyway, it is still unclear if you can get into a situation where it will matter with the powers that will be published (I still need official answers to "Bia pushes A's builder onto Clio's sacred block" and "can Apollo win by swapping places to level 3").


The answers to the question were No and Yes. So here is a case where Apollo can't win for lack of a build:

4 D2 4
4 D3 B1
4 A2 4


Dionysos placed a dome and moved Bia to level 1 (pushing one of his pieces to level 3, which is not a win), placing another dome as the build action. Apollo is next and would like to swap with the middle Dionysos for the win, but can't because all places surrounding the level 3 spot will contain builders or domes.
 
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George Leach
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Re: Rules FAQs Answered
Though you're undoubtedly correct according to existing rules Michael, I wonder if having that extra verbiage in the rule is worth constraining that one fairly contrived situation.
 
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Lee Mitchell
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Re: Rules FAQs Answered
But it is my turn and at that moment I am my opponent. "Take an additional turn as if you were another player."

And if I can lose on my extra turn, why can I not win?

I've done as you suggested and asked Gord on the Kickstarter.

 
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Michael Van Biesbrouck
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Re: Rules FAQs Answered
The rules don't need extra words, it is just that a legal turn includes a build (losing without taking a turn when there will be no legal builds has been in the FAQ since 2004). Winning by taking an illegal turn would be cheating. Also, it would be weird if you could only win because there was a legal move/build that you weren't going to take.

The need to take a complete turn is mostly about player elimination. The good news is that not being able to win mid-turn will probably never come up for most players since it will be impossible to arise in almost all games. However, with dozens of official powers and lots of fan creations there will be games that are all about trying to trap players.

Part of the reason for working on the FAQ now is so that final wording in the rules and powers will allow me to delete most of the FAQ :) Also, Gord! is explaining things in the KS comments that will be effectively lost if they aren't recorded elsewhere. The same questions get asked many times since KS doesn't provide a proper forum structure.
 
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Re: Rules FAQs Answered
Gord! and Roxley have now said you can win without taking a complete turn. Checking on the corner-cases.
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Re: Rules FAQs Answered
Okay, things have changed in the last decade (revelations due to Lee asking questions on the KS comment thread). You are always allowed to end the game by winning if you can. Fixed up a number of things to match this.
 
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mlvanbie wrote:
Lots of work was done to remove power conflicts prior to the PnP/published version and several powers were changed. Everything in this thread is obsolete.

Gord! has been answering questions in the Kickstarter comments and many questions have answers in posts about the self-published version of Santorini. I'll put these things together here and hopefully the final version of the rules will address everything.

General

Winning

You can win in one of the following ways:

* on your turn, one of your pieces climbs to level 3 (moving from one level 3 spot to another does not count)
* use of a special power (e.g. Pan) on your own turn
* all of your opponents lose

The game ends immediately when you win; you do not need to complete your turn.

No Legal Moves

If a player cannot take a legal turn, he removes all of his pieces from the board and loses.

Normally your turn must include both a move and build action. You can also win before building and some powers may allow you to avoid building (e.g. Morpheus).

Blocks and Domes

Domes are special cases of blocks, so powers that refer to blocks also apply to domes. When a builder would place a block at level 4, it will be a dome.

Movement Powers

When powers such as Apollo's swap cause altitude changes they count as climbing up or jumping down.

Heroic Powers

These powers are single-use. You can't be forced to use them by another power, but you will need to obey other powers while using them (but see Power Conflicts, below).

Setup

When it is your turn to place pieces, place both of your pieces.

Power Conflicts

If two powers are in conflict, the correct resolution will be one that doesn't entirely eliminate one of the powers. (The resolution should also appear below.) It is normal for some powers to be weaker against others.

Artemis vs Persephone

Artemis must step up a least once if possible but isn't required to step up a second time. Legal:

0 A0 1 2 -> 0 0 A1 2 (stepped up, but did not take a second move to step up again when possible)

A0 1 -> 0 1
2 0 -> 2 A0 (stepped up to 1 but went back down to 0 when stepping up to 2 was possible)


Illegal:

0 A0 0 1 -> A0 0 0 1 (could have stepped up on the second move had she gone the other way)


Hades vs Pan

Pan may jump down exactly two levels to win, but otherwise may not jump down.

Hecate vs ...

Apollo: When moving, you have two options: 'I wish to move here, swapping if necessary' (always succeeds) and 'I attempt to move here normally' (may fail). If Apollo swaps with Hecate then Apollo does not discover this; only Hecate knows that she was moved.

Bia: When she could push a builder out of her destination square, she has the same options and consequences as Apollo.

Dionysus: You get to see Hecate's board.

Heracles (and other powers that let you do multiple things): Place domes one a time when you play minesweeper against Hecate.

Medusa: Medusa's power is assumed to be active unless she says she does not want to use it on a particular turn.

Heroes: If they lose their turn due to a failed heroic power, completely reverse the use of the power. They can try to use the power again later.

Hermes vs Persephone

If it is possible to step up, Hermes cannot take his special turn.

Individual Powers

Clio

Powers cannot move another player's builders onto your sacred blocks (e.g., Bia's push).

If you build a non-sacred block on top of a sacred one, other players may move or build onto that block.

Dionysus

Nobody can win on Dionysus' extra turn.

You do not gain additional extra turns by placing domes on your extra turn.

The above rules are all you need to know. The following explanation was previously approved but may be obsolete:

When you take a turn as another player, it is your turn. Moving your opponent to level 3 doesn't cause either of you to win (not the turn of the piece being moved). Having your opponent move you to level 3 doesn't cause you to win (not climbing up, just being moved). Nobody should ever be able to win on the extra turn (a change from earlier versions), but you can move your opponents into positions where they will have no legal moves.

Gaia

For two-player games only.

Hecate

Hecate will have a mini board to track her movements.

Pan

Pan must jump down exactly two levels to win using his special victory condition (e.g. from level 2 to 0 or 3 to 1).

Polyphemus

Your power can be used any time on your turn.

Unanswered Questions

What happens during setup if a player places on Hecate? Is the setup turn lost?



it seems this has been changed in the retail rules :

Blocks and Domes

Domes are special cases of blocks, so powers that refer to blocks also apply to domes. When a builder would place a block at level 4, it will be a dome.
 
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Michael Van Biesbrouck
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As I wrote at the top, this was made obsolete by Gord!, Roxley and various volunteers trying to remove the need for power conflicts. The addition of many powers changed some defaults, such as whether a dome was a block.
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mlvanbie wrote:
As I wrote at the top, this was made obsolete by Gord!, Roxley and various volunteers trying to remove the need for power conflicts. The addition of many powers changed some defaults, such as whether a dome was a block.


Oops... I didn't take it as obsolete for everything...
I'm writing a rules synthesis in french so i'm reading all of the comments.
 
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Michael Van Biesbrouck
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This is really dead; I would have deleted it except that many people contributed to the discussion. Thanks for pointing out the things you noticed during your careful reading.
 
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